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From: Anonymous on 29 Apr 2010 08:35
In article <83s4tjFv3oU1(a)mid.individual.net>,
Pete Dashwood <dashwood(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>docdwarf(a)panix.com wrote:

[snip]

>> I
>> gave up playing decades on back (Guild F-112, Martin Silk-and-Steel
>> strings) when I realised that I didn't have the drive to be Leo
>> Kottke or the madness to be John Fahey.
>>
>It's sad that you stopped, Doc. I can understand and relate to it, though.

Some folks *greatly* appreciated my stopping, Mr Dashwood. To match your
Tales of Music in Far-Off Places with one of my own...

.... I was once in the forgotten, benighted, best-avoided and most-strange
place of New Haven, Connecticut, USA a few decades back. It was late, my
associate and I were poor and bored and a bit hungry; we sat outside of a
Donut Shoppee and, as folk-music purists sometime describe it, 'commenced
a-whackin', somethin' fierce'. My associate worked a 6-string guitar of
some unremembered provenance and I laid into a round-backed mandolin
(called by some a 'tater (potato) bug') and we thunked and twanked and
yowled a bit.

For those who do not know it: New Haven, Connecticut, is the home of Yale
University. Yale attracts 'old money'; approximately 50% of its students
have a parent who graduated (such students are called 'legacies') and, as
such, usually come from backgrounds of financial ease and look towards
futures of relative certainty... part of going to The Right School is to
meet The Right People, whose parents *just happened* to have gone to the
same Right School... et and cetera.

Anyhow... there we were, in front of Mr Donut, making sounds of some sort
or another and a small group of Yalies paused before going into the
Shoppee for their 2:am caffeine-and-carbohydrate fix. One of them asked
what we were doing and we replied that we were trying to get together
(small sum of money) so we could get their 'two sinkers and a cup o' mud'
special...

.... and this fellow said 'Tell you what... I'll give you that money, right
now, if only you'll just... stop playing.'

Being as dedicated to our Art and Purity as we were... we said 'Sure
thing!'

>
>I went to see Andre Sovia and never touched a guitar again for over six
>months. (Normally I play at least 3 or 4 times a week.)

I believe it was Ignacy Jan Paderewski who said 'If I miss practise for
one day I can tell the difference. If I miss practise for two days my
wife can tell the difference. If I miss practise for three days...
*anyone* can tell the difference.'

>
>When you see true masters you realise you are probably never going to be
>that good.
>
>But there's another important realization too: Music is NOT a contest.

Yes... and no. As with any skill involving technique there's always going
to be Somebody Better, true... but what I found was that not only could I
not reproduce the sounds that I enjoyed hearing others play, I could not
make, inside my head, the sounds that they managed to transmit to their
fingers and coax out of steel and wood. It just wasn't in me, either in
my muscles or in the Pons Musicalis (that part of the brain which gets
touched by the Muse, forming a bridge between the eidos (form) of Music
and what is coaxed out of an instrument).

Who knows... perhaps when my life changes yet again I'll blow the dust off
the Guild and see what I can do with it. Until then my fingertips remain
uncalloused and I am satisfied with 'I know I cannot make those sounds...
but *damnation*, it is a Wonderful World to live in where someone else
can!')

DD
From: Pete Dashwood on 29 Apr 2010 09:01
docdwarf(a)panix.com wrote:
> In article <83s4tjFv3oU1(a)mid.individual.net>,
> Pete Dashwood <dashwood(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>> docdwarf(a)panix.com wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>> I
>>> gave up playing decades on back (Guild F-112, Martin Silk-and-Steel
>>> strings) when I realised that I didn't have the drive to be Leo
>>> Kottke or the madness to be John Fahey.
>>>
>> It's sad that you stopped, Doc. I can understand and relate to it,
>> though.
>
> Some folks *greatly* appreciated my stopping, Mr Dashwood. To match
> your Tales of Music in Far-Off Places with one of my own...
>
> ... I was once in the forgotten, benighted, best-avoided and
> most-strange place of New Haven, Connecticut, USA a few decades back.
> It was late, my associate and I were poor and bored and a bit hungry;
> we sat outside of a Donut Shoppee and, as folk-music purists sometime
> describe it, 'commenced a-whackin', somethin' fierce'. My associate
> worked a 6-string guitar of some unremembered provenance and I laid
> into a round-backed mandolin (called by some a 'tater (potato) bug')
> and we thunked and twanked and yowled a bit.
>
> For those who do not know it: New Haven, Connecticut, is the home of
> Yale University. Yale attracts 'old money'; approximately 50% of its
> students have a parent who graduated (such students are called
> 'legacies') and, as such, usually come from backgrounds of financial
> ease and look towards futures of relative certainty... part of going
> to The Right School is to meet The Right People, whose parents *just
> happened* to have gone to the same Right School... et and cetera.
>
> Anyhow... there we were, in front of Mr Donut, making sounds of some
> sort or another and a small group of Yalies paused before going into
> the Shoppee for their 2:am caffeine-and-carbohydrate fix. One of
> them asked what we were doing and we replied that we were trying to
> get together (small sum of money) so we could get their 'two sinkers
> and a cup o' mud' special...
>
> ... and this fellow said 'Tell you what... I'll give you that money,
> right now, if only you'll just... stop playing.'
>
> Being as dedicated to our Art and Purity as we were... we said 'Sure
> thing!'
>

LOL! great story :-)

>>
>> I went to see Andre Sovia and never touched a guitar again for over
>> six months. (Normally I play at least 3 or 4 times a week.)
>
> I believe it was Ignacy Jan Paderewski who said 'If I miss practise
> for one day I can tell the difference. If I miss practise for two
> days my wife can tell the difference. If I miss practise for three
> days... *anyone* can tell the difference.'
>
>>
>> When you see true masters you realise you are probably never going
>> to be that good.
>>
>> But there's another important realization too: Music is NOT a
>> contest.
>
> Yes... and no. As with any skill involving technique there's always
> going to be Somebody Better, true... but what I found was that not
> only could I not reproduce the sounds that I enjoyed hearing others
> play, I could not make, inside my head, the sounds that they managed
> to transmit to their fingers and coax out of steel and wood. It just
> wasn't in me, either in my muscles or in the Pons Musicalis (that
> part of the brain which gets touched by the Muse, forming a bridge
> between the eidos (form) of Music and what is coaxed out of an
> instrument).

I believe you because you say so, but I have to wonder if maybe you set
yourself too high a standard? See, I believe that if it TRULY "wasn't in
you" you'd never pick the instrument up in the first place...:-)

>
> Who knows... perhaps when my life changes yet again I'll blow the
> dust off the Guild and see what I can do with it. Until then my
> fingertips remain uncalloused and I am satisfied with 'I know I
> cannot make those sounds... but *damnation*, it is a Wonderful World
> to live in where someone else can!')

It is fine to admire and enjoy the music of others, but there is a still a
joy and satisfaction in creating your own. I was messing round with the new
amplifier tonight (I'm not really well versed in electric guitars and never
messed around much with the stratocaster and the Les Paul. Just played them
as they were.) Anyway, being a "computer guy" I decided to read the manual
for the new Roland and found out all kinds of interesting stuff. I was
working my way through the available effects and found that maximum flange
and maximium reverb together gave a ghostly, surreal sound to the treble
strings and a lick that was normally fairly banal was transformed into
something quite different. I started experimenting and was so transported
that when a friend turned up for dinner I wasn't even aware she was there
for a full minute or so. I thnk I am going to spend a lot more time
exploring these effects... :-)

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."


From: Bill Gunshannon on 29 Apr 2010 10:01
In article <83te9bF21mU1(a)mid.individual.net>,
"Pete Dashwood" <dashwood(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz> writes:
>
> I believe you because you say so, but I have to wonder if maybe you set
> yourself too high a standard? See, I believe that if it TRULY "wasn't in
> you" you'd never pick the instrument up in the first place...:-)

Aafraid i can't agree with this. I have "picked up" many an instrument
(currently working on the flute). My very first was the piano and the
very firsty piece i learned to play (on my own) was Chopin's "Prelude
to the Polonaise". I also played guitar back when it was what every
kid in high school did (Folk Music not Rock in my case!!) Only one
small problem. Now, I am an excellent Programmer and Systems Analyst.
I am a terrible Web Master. What does that have to do with music?
Simple. It's a right-brain - left-brain thing. I am very strong
technically but while I appreciate art I have no real artistic talent.
I play mechanically. I can read the music and make the instrument put
out the sounds on the paper. But, sadly, that isn't music. "Picking
up" and instrument may only mean that one has a appreciation for the
capabilities of the instrument. it does not necessarily mean they
will have the ability to make music as opposed to noise.

bill


--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
From: SkippyPB on 29 Apr 2010 12:09
On 29 Apr 2010 14:01:50 GMT, billg999(a)cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
wrote:

>In article <83te9bF21mU1(a)mid.individual.net>,
> "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz> writes:
>>
>> I believe you because you say so, but I have to wonder if maybe you set
>> yourself too high a standard? See, I believe that if it TRULY "wasn't in
>> you" you'd never pick the instrument up in the first place...:-)
>
>Aafraid i can't agree with this. I have "picked up" many an instrument
>(currently working on the flute). My very first was the piano and the
>very firsty piece i learned to play (on my own) was Chopin's "Prelude
>to the Polonaise". I also played guitar back when it was what every
>kid in high school did (Folk Music not Rock in my case!!) Only one
>small problem. Now, I am an excellent Programmer and Systems Analyst.
>I am a terrible Web Master. What does that have to do with music?
>Simple. It's a right-brain - left-brain thing. I am very strong
>technically but while I appreciate art I have no real artistic talent.
>I play mechanically. I can read the music and make the instrument put
>out the sounds on the paper. But, sadly, that isn't music. "Picking
>up" and instrument may only mean that one has a appreciation for the
>capabilities of the instrument. it does not necessarily mean they
>will have the ability to make music as opposed to noise.
>
>bill

There must be some connection (other than left brain, right brain)
between programming and music, or rather, the ability to play. I seem
to recall that one of the old posters in this group, Donald Tees, was
also a musician.

I began playing piano at age 7 or 8, taught by my mother. I didn't
like it. Selected a trumpet to play once I got into grade school and
loved it. Heard Chet Atkins on the AM radio one day and said I want
to play guitar. Saved my newspaper, lawn cutting, allowance money
until I could afford a cheap electric and a small amplifier. While
teaching myself guitar I continued to play trumpet, learned trombone
and even a little accordion. Finally, I hooked up with a guy who was
in a band and took guitar lessons. After a while I made my own band
at age 12 and at age 13 we were opening for more established rock
and/or blues bands of the age. We did 3 summers in California (we
were from Indiana and Michigan) doing multiple band concerts and
playing with folks like the Grateful Dead before they were named that,
Jefferson Airplane before they were named that and Big Brother and the
Holding Company who had this phenomenal female singer named Janis
Joplin before they were famous.

We were doing well and honing our craft but the Vietnam War got in the
way. I was the youngest member of the group and the two oldest were
drafted into the Army and Marines and that ended the band. Another
member moved to Canada and another just disappeared. I continued to
play on my own but couldn't bring myself to join another band. Finally
I got drafted.

After Nam I bought an acoustic and had a couple of different electrics
but my apartment was broken into 3 times and I lost my guitars and my
desire to play music. That was in 1974 or 5.

Just two years ago I bought a couple of electrics and have tried to
find time to relearn. Harder than it should be. Maybe when I retire
I'll devote full time to music again. I do miss it.

On one other note, when I program I have rock or blues blasting away
(unless my wife's sleeping - she works 3rd.).

Regards,
--

////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-


"There are two types of people in this world, good and bad.
The good sleep better, but the bad seem to enjoy the waking
hours much more."
-- Woody Allen
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Remove nospam to email me.

Steve
From: Pete Dashwood on 29 Apr 2010 18:51
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <83te9bF21mU1(a)mid.individual.net>,
> "Pete Dashwood" <dashwood(a)removethis.enternet.co.nz> writes:
>>
>> I believe you because you say so, but I have to wonder if maybe you
>> set yourself too high a standard? See, I believe that if it TRULY
>> "wasn't in you" you'd never pick the instrument up in the first
>> place...:-)
>
> Aafraid i can't agree with this. I have "picked up" many an
> instrument (currently working on the flute). My very first was the
> piano and the very firsty piece i learned to play (on my own) was
> Chopin's "Prelude to the Polonaise".

Frederick
Would often play a Polonaise
And he'd go on playing it
For days and days...

That one? :-)


I also played guitar back when
> it was what every kid in high school did (Folk Music not Rock in my
> case!!) Only one small problem. Now, I am an excellent Programmer
> and Systems Analyst. I am a terrible Web Master. What does that have
> to do with music? Simple. It's a right-brain - left-brain thing. I
> am very strong technically but while I appreciate art I have no real
> artistic talent.

As long as you believe that, it is true :-) Art is a very subjective thing.


>I play mechanically. I can read the music and make
> the instrument put out the sounds on the paper. But, sadly, that
> isn't music.

It is a form of music. And it is enough for many people. (We have many
people in our club who play directly from the music.)

The next step is to persevere until you can play it without the music.
Having repeated it until you can do it without thinking about the next chord
change and your fingers simply fall into the right place at the right time,
you can then think about what the piece is really about. Why did the author
write it? Can you imagine how he/she felt? It is at this point that you
start to assert "ownership" of it. You see the whole thing in a new light
and it becomes as much "yours" as it was for the person who wrote it.

(Obviously, it is much harder to do this with a classical piece like the
Polonaise, than with something that has words as well as music, but it is
still possible. The best concert musicians are not visualizing the notes on
the paper; they are expressing how the music makes them feel. (that's why
there can be so many different interpretations of the same Classical piece).
If you see Nigel Kennedy playing Vivaldi's "Spring" you can see the last
thing on his mind is the notes on the paper. Many, many, hours of practise
have allowed the "mechanics" you mentioned to be transcended and he is in a
different place from a violinist playing the notes "mechanically" off the
paper.)


>"Picking up" and instrument may only mean that one has
> a appreciation for the capabilities of the instrument. it does not
> necessarily mean they will have the ability to make music as opposed
> to noise.

OK, I guess that is fair.

It is certainly true that many people start to learn an instrument and then
give up so I guess that supports your case.

I still believe that anyone who gets to the stage of being able to play
"mechanically" can push through to the next level if they really want to.

I teach youngsters for free if they want to learn.(I don't make a living out
of it and do it on an individual basis for children of people I know.) If
the kids want to learn, it is free; if their parents want them to learn, I
charge. :-) I always have a chat with the prospective musician and ascertain
why they are learning. If they don't do their homework, the course stops.
(That has only ever happened once with the couple of dozen kids I have
taught over the years.) Some of them become excellent guitarists, some of
them never get past "mechanical", but all of them say they enjoy the
lessons.

I hope you persevere with your flute, Bill. It is a beautiful instrument
when played well.

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."


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