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From: Mathal on 13 Jun 2010 09:52
On Jun 12, 10:35 pm, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote:
> "Mathal" <mathmusi...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:81030343-37ff-44b5-ae45-af5e8765cd9c(a)g1g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>
> > This is from wikipedia
>
> OK .. so we can't blame you then :)
>
> > In the paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise, Achilles is in a footrace
> > with the tortoise. Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of 100
> > metres. If we suppose that each racer starts running at some constant
> > speed (one very fast and one very slow), then after some finite time,
> > Achilles will have run 100 metres, bringing him to the tortoise's
> > starting point. During this time, the tortoise has run a much shorter
> > distance, say, 10 metres. It will then take Achilles some further time
> > to run that distance, by which time the tortoise will have advanced
> > farther; and then more time still to reach this third point, while the
> > tortoise moves ahead. Thus, whenever Achilles reaches somewhere the
> > tortoise has been, he still has farther to go. Therefore, because
> > there are an infinite number of points Achilles must reach where the
> > tortoise has already been, he can never overtake the tortoise.
>
> That's one versions .. yeup.  Of course, we know that such an infinite sum
> of finite times and distances has a finite limit.

>
> > Now, with the beginning of a black hole a very similar paradox arises.
> > The very conditions that result in a black hole coming into being
> > cause time in this region of space-time to slow down. The closer to
> > the moment that this region of space-time is to the 'black hole start'
> > moment the slower time progresses. The infinite progression of zeno's
> > paradox is the black hole- You can't get there from here.
>
> Not the same argument .. because there the time intervals are getting
> longer, not shorter.

I said similar not identical. Both involve infinite progressions but
in this one as mass density increases time operates at a slower and
slower pace WRT lower density space-time positions. As much as the
massive object 'wants' to become a black hole it just doesn't have
enough time. It never will.
Mathal
From: Mathal on 13 Jun 2010 10:10
On Jun 12, 10:27 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 10:00 pm, dlzc <dl...(a)cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dear Mathal:
>
> > On Jun 12, 9:15 pm, Mathal <mathmusi...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > This is from wikipedia
>
> > > In the paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise,
> > > Achilles is in a footrace with the tortoise.
> > > Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of
> > > 100 metres. If we suppose that each racer
> > > starts running at some constant speed (one
> > > very fast and one very slow), then after some
> > > finite time, Achilles will have run 100 metres,
> > > bringing him to the tortoise's starting point.
>
> > No, the tortoise's starting point was next to Achilles.  You mean
> > "where the tortoise was when Achilles started".
>
> > > During this time, the tortoise has run a much
> > > shorter distance, say, 10 metres.
>
> > More likely 1 meter.
>
> > > It will then take Achilles some further time
> > > to run that distance, by which time the tortoise
> > > will have advanced farther; and then more time
> > > still to reach this third point, while the
> > > tortoise moves ahead. Thus, whenever Achilles
> > > reaches somewhere the tortoise has been, he still
> > > has farther to go. Therefore, because there are
> > > an infinite number of points Achilles must reach
> > > where the tortoise has already been, he can never
> > > overtake the tortoise.
>
> > Incorrect.  Achilles passes the tortoise in finite time.  What is more
> > Achilles went through an infinity of infinities in getting through the
> > first 100 meters.  Zero's paradox was a joke, and you didn't get the
> > punchline.
>
> > > Now, with the beginning of a black hole a very
> > > similar paradox arises.  The very conditions
> > > that result in a black hole coming into being
> > > cause time in this region of space-time to slow
> > > down.
>
> > No.  Infallers don't experience that.
>
> > > The closer to the moment that this region of
> > > space-time is to the 'black hole start'
> > > moment the slower time progresses.
>
> > For static stuff, sure.
>
> > > The infinite progression of zeno's paradox is
> > > the black hole- You can't get there from here.
>
> > Can and do.  But thanks for playing.
>
> >http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0611552http://arxiv.org/abs/1005.2877ht...
>
> > You know we are surrounded by them, so you can play these games, or
> > you can try and understand how they form.
>
> > David A. Smith
>
> Light has no escape speed like matter. Matter looses speed but light
> does not.
> How is outward going light going do be dragged backward by gravity?

> Where would its constant speed go?
>
> Mitch Raemsch

In my opinion light isn't stopped. It is just that time slows down all
processes of objects falling into such a massive object including
light frequency and amount of light given off.
Mathal
From: dlzc on 14 Jun 2010 16:28
Dear BURT:

On Jun 12, 10:27 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 10:00 pm,dlzc<dl...(a)cox.net> wrote:
> > On Jun 12, 9:15 pm, Mathal <mathmusi...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > This is from wikipedia
>
> > > In the paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise,
> > > Achilles is in a footrace with the tortoise.
> > > Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of
> > > 100 metres. If we suppose that each racer
> > > starts running at some constant speed (one
> > > very fast and one very slow), then after some
> > > finite time, Achilles will have run 100 metres,
> > > bringing him to the tortoise's starting point.
>
> > No, the tortoise's starting point was next to
> > Achilles.  You mean "where the tortoise was when
> > Achilles started".
>
> > > During this time, the tortoise has run a much
> > > shorter distance, say, 10 metres.
>
> > More likely 1 meter.
>
> > > It will then take Achilles some further time
> > > to run that distance, by which time the tortoise
> > > will have advanced farther; and then more time
> > > still to reach this third point, while the
> > > tortoise moves ahead. Thus, whenever Achilles
> > > reaches somewhere the tortoise has been, he still
> > > has farther to go. Therefore, because there are
> > > an infinite number of points Achilles must reach
> > > where the tortoise has already been, he can never
> > > overtake the tortoise.
>
> > Incorrect.  Achilles passes the tortoise in finite
> > time.  What is more Achilles went through an
> > infinity of infinities in getting through the
> > first 100 meters.  Zero's paradox was a joke, and
> > you didn't get the punchline.
>
> > > Now, with the beginning of a black hole a very
> > > similar paradox arises.  The very conditions
> > > that result in a black hole coming into being
> > > cause time in this region of space-time to slow
> > > down.
>
> > No.  Infallers don't experience that.
>
> > > The closer to the moment that this region of
> > > space-time is to the 'black hole start'
> > > moment the slower time progresses.
>
> > For static stuff, sure.
>
> > > The infinite progression of zeno's paradox is
> > > the black hole- You can't get there from here.
>
> > Can and do.  But thanks for playing.
>
<snip broken link>
>
> > You know we are surrounded by them, so you can
> > play these games, or you can try and understand
> > how they form.
>
> Light has no escape speed like matter.

Light has one speed in a vacuum.

> Matter looses speed but light does not.

Matter loses momentum to the gestalt of "gravity well plus matter",
when moving outwards. When light loses all momentum, is it
detectable? If the momentum goes negative, what is its direction of
motion?

> How is outward going light going do be
> dragged backward by gravity?
> Where would its constant speed go?

There are no straight lines from inside the event horizon, outwards.
Simiarly, there is no light that moves from "now" to "the past".

David A. Smith
From: Mathal on 15 Jun 2010 00:03
On Jun 14, 1:28 pm, dlzc <dl...(a)cox.net> wrote:
> Dear BURT:
>
> On Jun 12, 10:27 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 12, 10:00 pm,dlzc<dl...(a)cox.net> wrote:
> > > On Jun 12, 9:15 pm, Mathal <mathmusi...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > This is from wikipedia
>
> > > > In the paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise,
> > > > Achilles is in a footrace with the tortoise.
> > > > Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of
> > > > 100 metres. If we suppose that each racer
> > > > starts running at some constant speed (one
> > > > very fast and one very slow), then after some
> > > > finite time, Achilles will have run 100 metres,
> > > > bringing him to the tortoise's starting point.
>
> > > No, the tortoise's starting point was next to
> > > Achilles.  You mean "where the tortoise was when
> > > Achilles started".
>
> > > > During this time, the tortoise has run a much
> > > > shorter distance, say, 10 metres.
>
> > > More likely 1 meter.
>
> > > > It will then take Achilles some further time
> > > > to run that distance, by which time the tortoise
> > > > will have advanced farther; and then more time
> > > > still to reach this third point, while the
> > > > tortoise moves ahead. Thus, whenever Achilles
> > > > reaches somewhere the tortoise has been, he still
> > > > has farther to go. Therefore, because there are
> > > > an infinite number of points Achilles must reach
> > > > where the tortoise has already been, he can never
> > > > overtake the tortoise.
>
> > > Incorrect.  Achilles passes the tortoise in finite
> > > time.  What is more Achilles went through an
> > > infinity of infinities in getting through the
> > > first 100 meters.  Zero's paradox was a joke, and
> > > you didn't get the punchline.
>
> > > > Now, with the beginning of a black hole a very
> > > > similar paradox arises.  The very conditions
> > > > that result in a black hole coming into being
> > > > cause time in this region of space-time to slow
> > > > down.
>
> > > No.  Infallers don't experience that.
>
> > > > The closer to the moment that this region of
> > > > space-time is to the 'black hole start'
> > > > moment the slower time progresses.
>
> > > For static stuff, sure.
>
> > > > The infinite progression of zeno's paradox is
> > > > the black hole- You can't get there from here.
>
> > > Can and do.  But thanks for playing.
>
> <snip broken link>
>
> > > You know we are surrounded by them, so you can
> > > play these games, or you can try and understand
> > > how they form.
>
> > Light has no escape speed like matter.
>
> Light has one speed in a vacuum.
>
> > Matter looses speed but light does not.
>
> Matter loses momentum to the gestalt of "gravity well plus matter",
> when moving outwards.

Light has no mass, the term matter does not apply, deal with his
point. This is a straw dog.

 >When light loses all momentum, is it detectable?  

Light loses momentum by losing frequency. Frequency can't go past
zero- The photon vanishes. This breaks Quantum Mechanical laws. Get
with the program.
>If the momentum goes negative, what is its direction of motion?

How does momentum get past zero?

>
> > How is outward going light going do be
> > dragged backward by gravity?
> > Where would its constant speed go?
>
> There are no straight lines from inside the event horizon, outwards.
> Simiarly, there is no light that moves from "now" to "the past".

What?
>
> David A. Smith

Or rather, whatever.
Mathal
From: BURT on 15 Jun 2010 00:27
On Jun 14, 9:03 pm, Mathal <mathmusi...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 14, 1:28 pm, dlzc <dl...(a)cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dear BURT:
>
> > On Jun 12, 10:27 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 12, 10:00 pm,dlzc<dl...(a)cox.net> wrote:
> > > > On Jun 12, 9:15 pm, Mathal <mathmusi...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > This is from wikipedia
>
> > > > > In the paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise,
> > > > > Achilles is in a footrace with the tortoise.
> > > > > Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of
> > > > > 100 metres. If we suppose that each racer
> > > > > starts running at some constant speed (one
> > > > > very fast and one very slow), then after some
> > > > > finite time, Achilles will have run 100 metres,
> > > > > bringing him to the tortoise's starting point.
>
> > > > No, the tortoise's starting point was next to
> > > > Achilles.  You mean "where the tortoise was when
> > > > Achilles started".
>
> > > > > During this time, the tortoise has run a much
> > > > > shorter distance, say, 10 metres.
>
> > > > More likely 1 meter.
>
> > > > > It will then take Achilles some further time
> > > > > to run that distance, by which time the tortoise
> > > > > will have advanced farther; and then more time
> > > > > still to reach this third point, while the
> > > > > tortoise moves ahead. Thus, whenever Achilles
> > > > > reaches somewhere the tortoise has been, he still
> > > > > has farther to go. Therefore, because there are
> > > > > an infinite number of points Achilles must reach
> > > > > where the tortoise has already been, he can never
> > > > > overtake the tortoise.
>
> > > > Incorrect.  Achilles passes the tortoise in finite
> > > > time.  What is more Achilles went through an
> > > > infinity of infinities in getting through the
> > > > first 100 meters.  Zero's paradox was a joke, and
> > > > you didn't get the punchline.
>
> > > > > Now, with the beginning of a black hole a very
> > > > > similar paradox arises.  The very conditions
> > > > > that result in a black hole coming into being
> > > > > cause time in this region of space-time to slow
> > > > > down.
>
> > > > No.  Infallers don't experience that.
>
> > > > > The closer to the moment that this region of
> > > > > space-time is to the 'black hole start'
> > > > > moment the slower time progresses.
>
> > > > For static stuff, sure.
>
> > > > > The infinite progression of zeno's paradox is
> > > > > the black hole- You can't get there from here.
>
> > > > Can and do.  But thanks for playing.
>
> > <snip broken link>
>
> > > > You know we are surrounded by them, so you can
> > > > play these games, or you can try and understand
> > > > how they form.
>
> > > Light has no escape speed like matter.
>
> > Light has one speed in a vacuum.
>
> > > Matter looses speed but light does not.
>
> > Matter loses momentum to the gestalt of "gravity well plus matter",
> > when moving outwards.
>
> Light has no mass, the term matter does not apply, deal with his
> point. This is a straw dog.
>
>  >When light loses all momentum, is it  detectable?  
>
> Light loses momentum by losing frequency. Frequency can't go past
> zero- The photon vanishes. This breaks Quantum Mechanical laws. Get
> with the program.
>
> >If the momentum goes negative, what is its direction of  motion?
>
> How does momentum get past zero?
>
>
>
> > > How is outward going light going do be
> > > dragged backward by gravity?
> > > Where would its constant speed go?
>
> > There are no straight lines from inside the event horizon, outwards.
> > Simiarly, there is no light that moves from "now" to "the past".
>
> What?
>
>
>
> > David A. Smith
>
> Or rather, whatever.
>    Mathal- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Black holes violate laws of energy and motion.

Mitch Raemsch
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