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From: Sylvia Else on 18 Dec 2009 19:05 Pat Flannery wrote: > Sylvia Else wrote: >> >> An obvious solution would be battery storage to balance supply against >> demand. Pity we don't have anything that approaches being usable that >> way. > > They were bouncing up and down a decade or so back about storing vast > amounts of electricity in giant superconductor coils; what ever happened > to that idea? > > Pat Perhaps the correspondingly giant magnetic fields were an issue. Sylvia.
From: Sylvia Else on 18 Dec 2009 19:15 Pat Flannery wrote: > Sylvia Else wrote: >> >> However, this highlights another issue, which affects the cost, and >> that's that the generators cannot run at 100% capacity factor, because >> the demand isn't always there. There has to be installed capacity to >> meet the peaks in demand, not just the average. > > If he extra electrical power shows up, it will quickly get used somehow, Well, power isn't actually rationed now. Its consumption is dictated, at least in part, by cost. Not just the cost of the power, but also by the cost of the equipment that uses it. For example, although people go on about the power used by a desalination plant, it isn't the power that's the major driver of the cost of desalinated water - it's the cost of the plant. So even if power were cheaper - indeed even if it were free - there wouldn't be a rush to build desalinators even in areas (like Australia at the moment) that are short of water. The same would be true for electrolysis plants producing hydrogen. I suppose there are some industries at the margin that would consume more, and I might run the airconditioning a bit more - but only a bit. > One wild card in all this is if room temperature superconductors are > ever made, as then you could build huge power grids spanning whole > continents (or even the whole world) with superconducting transmission > lines in it, and use those to make up any electrical shortfall while a > individual power satellite is in eclipse. Power grids waste energy, it's true, but not that much. The main reason for not building long transmission lines is simply the cost of doing so, and the cost of maintaining them afterwards. Room temperature superconductors (better make that 50C superconductors in some places) wouldn't change the economics much. Sylvia.
From: Androcles on 18 Dec 2009 20:42 "Sylvia Else" <sylvia(a)not.at.this.address> wrote in message news:00a7e786$0$23359$c3e8da3(a)news.astraweb.com... > Peter Fairbrother wrote: >> Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote: >>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia(a)not.at.this.address> wrote in message >>> news:00185a93$0$2120$c3e8da3(a)news.astraweb.com... >>>> An obvious solution would be battery storage to balance supply against >>>> demand. Pity we don't have anything that approaches being usable that >>>> way. >>>> >>> >>> The one I'm hearing more and more about is compressed air. Not a >>> panacea, but apparently may be quite workable in many cases for peak >>> power loads. >> >> There is also pumped storage, eg Ffestiniog in Wales. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity >> >> -- Peter Fairbrother > > Pumped storage works - but like hydro, you can't just decide to build one. > You need somewhere suitable. In particular, you need to be able to store > large amounts of water at two levels that are at sufficiently different > elevations. > > Sylvia. You mean like in Wales?
From: Sylvia Else on 18 Dec 2009 21:07 Androcles wrote: > "Sylvia Else" <sylvia(a)not.at.this.address> wrote in message > news:00a7e786$0$23359$c3e8da3(a)news.astraweb.com... >> Peter Fairbrother wrote: >>> Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote: >>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia(a)not.at.this.address> wrote in message >>>> news:00185a93$0$2120$c3e8da3(a)news.astraweb.com... >>>>> An obvious solution would be battery storage to balance supply against >>>>> demand. Pity we don't have anything that approaches being usable that >>>>> way. >>>>> >>>> The one I'm hearing more and more about is compressed air. Not a >>>> panacea, but apparently may be quite workable in many cases for peak >>>> power loads. >>> There is also pumped storage, eg Ffestiniog in Wales. >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity >>> >>> -- Peter Fairbrother >> Pumped storage works - but like hydro, you can't just decide to build one. >> You need somewhere suitable. In particular, you need to be able to store >> large amounts of water at two levels that are at sufficiently different >> elevations. >> >> Sylvia. > > You mean like in Wales? It needs to be reasonably close to where the power will be consumed. The UK is small, and Wales is reasonably close to most of it. Wales is useful in the UK, but is hardly a general solution. Sylvia.
From: Androcles on 18 Dec 2009 22:02
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia(a)not.at.this.address> wrote in message news:00a4c352$0$1494$c3e8da3(a)news.astraweb.com... > Androcles wrote: >> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia(a)not.at.this.address> wrote in message >> news:00a7e786$0$23359$c3e8da3(a)news.astraweb.com... >>> Peter Fairbrother wrote: >>>> Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote: >>>>> "Sylvia Else" <sylvia(a)not.at.this.address> wrote in message >>>>> news:00185a93$0$2120$c3e8da3(a)news.astraweb.com... >>>>>> An obvious solution would be battery storage to balance supply >>>>>> against demand. Pity we don't have anything that approaches being >>>>>> usable that way. >>>>>> >>>>> The one I'm hearing more and more about is compressed air. Not a >>>>> panacea, but apparently may be quite workable in many cases for peak >>>>> power loads. >>>> There is also pumped storage, eg Ffestiniog in Wales. >>>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity >>>> >>>> -- Peter Fairbrother >>> Pumped storage works - but like hydro, you can't just decide to build >>> one. You need somewhere suitable. In particular, you need to be able to >>> store large amounts of water at two levels that are at sufficiently >>> different elevations. >>> >>> Sylvia. >> >> You mean like in Wales? > > It needs to be reasonably close to where the power will be consumed. The > UK is small, and Wales is reasonably close to most of it. Wales is useful > in the UK, but is hardly a general solution. > > Sylvia. Your historical, geographical and political knowledge is somewhat lacking. The Prince of Wales is the Queen's son, I'd suggest to you that Wales was most definitely part of the UK. The Isle of Man is part of Great Britain but is not part of the United Kingdom. Same applies to Eire. The oldest parliament in the world today is the Tynwald. http://www.tynwald.org.im/ The British Commonwealth, however, is larger than the small USA since it includes Canada and Australia, both of which show the Queen on their currency. I mentioned Wales (as Peter mentioned it) since it is able to store large amounts of water at two levels that are at sufficiently different elevations, just like that small place that has the Hoover dam, which reasonably close to where the power is consumed. |