...100 MW of Space Solar Power ...per single launch!
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From: jimp on 17 Dec 2009 13:50 In sci.physics Alain Fournier <alain245(a)sympatico.ca> wrote: > jimp(a)specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >> In sci.physics Alain Fournier <alain245(a)sympatico.ca> wrote: >> >>>jimp(a)specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>> >>>>In sci.physics Peter Fairbrother <zenadsl6186(a)zen.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Alain Fournier wrote: >>>> >>>>>However there would be other benefits to starting a space-based economy, >>>>>for instance things can be made in space which are impossible or >>>>>expensive to make on Earth >>>> >>>>Name something that is impossible to make on Earth or would be cheaper >>>>to make in space for which there is an actual market. >>> >>>Well there is no market for something that doesn't exist, so there >>>is currently no market for things that are impossible to make on Earth. >>>But here are a few things that a space based industry could possibly do. >>> >>>- Alloys made of metals of very different densities. >>>- Metal mousse (kind of a metal air alloy, or a metal vacuum alloy(??) ). >>>- It is suspected that some crystals next to impossible to grow on >>>Earth could be made in zero g. >>> >>>But I think that a space based industry would probably not be exporting >>>hardware to Earth, at least not at first. Exports to Earth would probably >>>at first be data and/or energy. So a space based industry could build >>> >>>- SPS >>>- Giant space telescopes. >>>- Fuel for interplanetary probes and interplanetary manned missions. >>>- Interplanetary probes or parts of them. >>> >>>Would you like more? >> >> >> What I would like is to hear of is an industrial product that would be >> purchased in the commercial marketplace. > > As I said "there is there is no market for something that doesn't exist, so > there is currently no market for things that are impossible to make on Earth. > > But I see no reason why > >>- Alloys made of metals of very different densities. > >>- Metal mousse (kind of a metal air alloy, or a metal vacuum alloy(??) ). > >>- It is suspected that some crystals next to impossible to grow on > >>Earth could be made in zero g. > > could not be traded in a commercial marketplace. > > > Alain Fournier It depends on whether or not there is some actual use for those items and if they could be made at a marketable price. All of which at this point is arm-waving conjecture. I can make a motor out of a cigarette lighter flint, a birthday candle, and a magnet, but there is no use for such a motor other than as a classroom demonstration. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply.
From: jimp on 17 Dec 2009 14:20 In sci.physics Peter Fairbrother <zenadsl6186(a)zen.co.uk> wrote: > jimp(a)specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >> The amount of recoverable energy is directly proportional to the energy >> density for a given area. > > Yes. > >> >> The amount of lawsuits generated and the costs for a ground station are >> directly proportional to the ground area. > > Yes, roughly. But .. > >> >> The wave length can not be chosen as a "convenient" one but must be in >> an ISM band as governed in the US by Part 18 of the FCC rules. > > > .. which brings some physics into play. It will also have to be > convenient in the sense that it is in the atmospheric window (the range > of frequencies where the atmosphere is transparent). > > The main contenders are 2.45 GHz as used for microwave ovens, and 5.2 > GHz. The physics involved means that ground antenna sizes will be in the > 3-7 mile diameter range, regardless of total power or power density. Both of which are heavily used so there would be no Wi-fi or cordless phones (among other things) anywhere near this facility. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply.
From: jimp on 17 Dec 2009 14:28 In sci.physics Peter Fairbrother <zenadsl6186(a)zen.co.uk> wrote: > jimp(a)specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >> >> What I would like is to hear of is an industrial product that would be >> purchased in the commercial marketplace. >> >> > > Foamed metal bicycle frames? > > Maybe semiconductor crystals? > > It depends on the cost of manufacturing in space, which depends on the > existing launch market, and the existing space industrial capacity. > > It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation, once a space industry is > started making things gets cheaper, and more products will become economic. > > -- Peter Fairbrother No industry gets started anywhere without the existance of a marketable product to sell. So, the arguement is: IF there were a robust space transportations system, and IF there were mining and refining operations in space, and IF there were manufacturing facilities in space, and IF somthing is discovered that would be of commercial value, and IF it could be made at a marketable price, then we would have a space industry. Sounds like a good business plan to me, where do I buy stock in it? -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply.
From: Greg D. Moore (Strider) on 17 Dec 2009 15:40 <jimp(a)specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message news:cmaqv6-t24.ln1(a)mail.specsol.com... > In sci.physics "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" > <mooregr_delet3th1s(a)greenms.com> wrote: >> <jimp(a)specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message >> news:623qv6-963.ln1(a)mail.specsol.com... >>> In sci.physics "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" >>> <mooregr_delet3th1s(a)greenms.com> wrote: >>>> <jimp(a)specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message >>>> news:6isov6-47s.ln1(a)mail.specsol.com... >>>>> In sci.physics "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" >>>>> <mooregr_delet3th1s(a)greenms.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If the energy density is low enough to be safe, it isn't high enough >>>>> to >>>>> be particularly usefull. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> In other words you've just proven terresterial solar power doesn't work >>>> either. I'll go tell the folks I know using it that you've proven >>>> their >>>> systems don't work. >>> >>> Terresterial solar power as a general source of electrical power (as >>> opposed >>> to niche situations) only works today on an economic level because of >>> government subsidies in many forms. >>> >> >> Please explain how economics has anything to do with the physics of the >> safety of the power density. >> >> Right, it doesn't. In other words you're creating a strawman here. I >> never >> argued economics. > > Nothing ever gets built without money. > > Economics is about money. > > You "argued" "proven terresterial solar power". Yes, in a physics sense. Since you're the one claiming the power density is too low to work. If you want to make a DIFFERENT argument, based on economy, not physics, fine by me, but be clear that you're changing your argument. Of course on the economic front, you won't get much of an argument from me. I've seen nothing to convince me the economics of SPS works in any near-term future. But the physics, they certainly work. > > > > -- > Jim Pennino > > Remove .spam.sux to reply.
From: Alain Fournier on 17 Dec 2009 15:45
jimp(a)specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > In sci.physics Alain Fournier <alain245(a)sympatico.ca> wrote: > >>jimp(a)specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> >> >>>In sci.physics Alain Fournier <alain245(a)sympatico.ca> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>jimp(a)specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>In sci.physics Peter Fairbrother <zenadsl6186(a)zen.co.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Alain Fournier wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>However there would be other benefits to starting a space-based economy, >>>>>>for instance things can be made in space which are impossible or >>>>>>expensive to make on Earth >>>>> >>>>>Name something that is impossible to make on Earth or would be cheaper >>>>>to make in space for which there is an actual market. >>>> >>>>Well there is no market for something that doesn't exist, so there >>>>is currently no market for things that are impossible to make on Earth. >>>>But here are a few things that a space based industry could possibly do. >>>> >>>>- Alloys made of metals of very different densities. >>>>- Metal mousse (kind of a metal air alloy, or a metal vacuum alloy(??) ). >>>>- It is suspected that some crystals next to impossible to grow on >>>>Earth could be made in zero g. >>>> >>>>But I think that a space based industry would probably not be exporting >>>>hardware to Earth, at least not at first. Exports to Earth would probably >>>>at first be data and/or energy. So a space based industry could build >>>> >>>>- SPS >>>>- Giant space telescopes. >>>>- Fuel for interplanetary probes and interplanetary manned missions. >>>>- Interplanetary probes or parts of them. >>>> >>>>Would you like more? >>> >>> >>>What I would like is to hear of is an industrial product that would be >>>purchased in the commercial marketplace. >> >>As I said "there is there is no market for something that doesn't exist, so >>there is currently no market for things that are impossible to make on Earth. >> >>But I see no reason why >> >>>>- Alloys made of metals of very different densities. >>>>- Metal mousse (kind of a metal air alloy, or a metal vacuum alloy(??) ). >>>>- It is suspected that some crystals next to impossible to grow on >>>>Earth could be made in zero g. >> >>could not be traded in a commercial marketplace. >> >> >>Alain Fournier > > > It depends on whether or not there is some actual use for those items and > if they could be made at a marketable price. Yes. Well there are clearly some uses for the metal alloys and mousse. Whether they could be made at a marketable price is an open question. For small quantities, the answer is clearly no. But for larger quantities who knows. > All of which at this point is arm-waving conjecture. I'm not saying that one can clearly become rich by starting a space based industry right now. What I said is that if you want to build SPSs, there is an option you should consider. That is to build it in space from space based material (asteroids) instead of doing it all from Earth. If you do it from space based materials, there *might* be additional things you can do with the stuff you mine. As is the case most of the time with a new product, a new process or a new material, there is some uncertainty. But you can't write it all off as impossible without doing a serious effort to see if is feasible, sensible and profitable. Alain Fournier |