3.3v<->5V
in [FPGA]
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From: David Geirsson on 15 Oct 2005 16:01 Hi all, I am new to logic design in general, but I am getting an FPGA development board (the Spartan-3 board from xilinx) and I hope to make a small circuit for connecting to an old microcomputer and some SRAM. For this project, I will need a bunch of (~60) 5V I/O lines, but the FPGA's lines are all 3.3V logic. How do people generally go about handling this sort of thing? It seems ridiculous to put 8-bit data buffers on the lines, as there would be a ridiculous amount of them. Is there a good level converter circuit with loads of I/O lines or some such? Any help would be appreciated! -dsg
From: John Adair on 15 Oct 2005 19:10 There are a few ways to do this. Bus switches are the common way especially when you don't want a significant timing penalty. We us these on our development products and you can see 20 bit devices on out Broaddown2 and Mini-Can products. However these are not for the quick knock-up circuit as they are on a 0.4 mm lead pitch. As a bit a plug when using our boards stand-alone the PCI interface on our boards can be used as 50 bit, 5V tolerant, interface using an optional connection module. There are other high bit count devices available as bus switches, or even 5V tolerant logic, but the same problems with non-simple packages will generally occur. We have a module planned that may help with bus switches on-board but probably 10-12 weeks before that is likely to be available. This module will be in DIL format and can be incorporated into stripboards circuits etc for use with anyone's boards. Otherwise you can use resistors to limit the current into the Spartan-3 using the internal protection diodes to limit voltage. If the I/O voltage is set at 3.3V, or higher, then you need to be careful as the limit on the Spartan-3 I/O is 4.05V. 3.3V + 0.7(diode) = 4V. Usually with this technique you drop the I/O voltage slightly to 3.0-3.2V as we do on most of our products to improve the safety margin. If your board hasn't got Vccio low enough then you can use either schottky diodes, or appropriate zeners to 0V, to cut in before the internal protection diodes do. John Adair Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Raggedstone1. The Cheap Spartan3 PCI Development Board. http://www.enterpoint.co.uk "David Geirsson" <alt.spam(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:1129406486.415303.231540(a)z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > Hi all, > > I am new to logic design in general, but I am getting an FPGA > development board (the Spartan-3 board from xilinx) and I hope to make > a small circuit for connecting to an old microcomputer and some SRAM. > For this project, I will need a bunch of (~60) 5V I/O lines, but the > FPGA's lines are all 3.3V logic. How do people generally go about > handling this sort of thing? It seems ridiculous to put 8-bit data > buffers on the lines, as there would be a ridiculous amount of them. Is > there a good level converter circuit with loads of I/O lines or some > such? > > Any help would be appreciated! > > -dsg >
From: John Larkin on 15 Oct 2005 22:50 On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:10:52 +0100, "John Adair" <loseitintheblackhole(a)blackholesextreme.co.uk> wrote: >There are a few ways to do this. Bus switches are the common way especially >when you don't want a significant timing penalty. We us these on our >development products and you can see 20 bit devices on out Broaddown2 and >Mini-Can products. However these are not for the quick knock-up circuit as >they are on a 0.4 mm lead pitch. As a bit a plug when using our boards >stand-alone the PCI interface on our boards can be used as 50 bit, 5V >tolerant, interface using an optional connection module. There are other >high bit count devices available as bus switches, or even 5V tolerant logic, >but the same problems with non-simple packages will generally occur. > >We have a module planned that may help with bus switches on-board but >probably 10-12 weeks before that is likely to be available. This module will >be in DIL format and can be incorporated into stripboards circuits etc for >use with anyone's boards. > >Otherwise you can use resistors to limit the current into the Spartan-3 >using the internal protection diodes to limit voltage. If the I/O voltage is >set at 3.3V, or higher, then you need to be careful as the limit on the >Spartan-3 I/O is 4.05V. 3.3V + 0.7(diode) = 4V. Usually with this technique >you drop the I/O voltage slightly to 3.0-3.2V as we do on most of our >products to improve the safety margin. If your board hasn't got Vccio low >enough then you can use either schottky diodes, or appropriate zeners to 0V, >to cut in before the internal protection diodes do. > We interfaced a 5-volt uP to a Spartan3 with just series resistors. It worked fine, but the high levels on the logic lines snuck through the S3 esd diodes and pulled the 3.3 volt supply up to about 3.7. We scaled down the programming resistors on the 3.3 volt regulator radically to dump enough supply current and hold the 3.3 down where it belongs. John
From: GPE on 15 Oct 2005 23:27 "John Larkin" <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message news:dpf3l1t3786r5qor86djqncf2blo1ff3v6(a)4ax.com... > On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:10:52 +0100, "John Adair" > <loseitintheblackhole(a)blackholesextreme.co.uk> wrote: > >>There are a few ways to do this. Bus switches are the common way >>especially >>when you don't want a significant timing penalty. We us these on our >>development products and you can see 20 bit devices on out Broaddown2 and >>Mini-Can products. However these are not for the quick knock-up circuit as >>they are on a 0.4 mm lead pitch. As a bit a plug when using our boards >>stand-alone the PCI interface on our boards can be used as 50 bit, 5V >>tolerant, interface using an optional connection module. There are other >>high bit count devices available as bus switches, or even 5V tolerant >>logic, >>but the same problems with non-simple packages will generally occur. >> >>We have a module planned that may help with bus switches on-board but >>probably 10-12 weeks before that is likely to be available. This module >>will >>be in DIL format and can be incorporated into stripboards circuits etc for >>use with anyone's boards. >> >>Otherwise you can use resistors to limit the current into the Spartan-3 >>using the internal protection diodes to limit voltage. If the I/O voltage >>is >>set at 3.3V, or higher, then you need to be careful as the limit on the >>Spartan-3 I/O is 4.05V. 3.3V + 0.7(diode) = 4V. Usually with this >>technique >>you drop the I/O voltage slightly to 3.0-3.2V as we do on most of our >>products to improve the safety margin. If your board hasn't got Vccio low >>enough then you can use either schottky diodes, or appropriate zeners to >>0V, >>to cut in before the internal protection diodes do. >> > > We interfaced a 5-volt uP to a Spartan3 with just series resistors. It > worked fine, but the high levels on the logic lines snuck through the > S3 esd diodes and pulled the 3.3 volt supply up to about 3.7. We > scaled down the programming resistors on the 3.3 volt regulator > radically to dump enough supply current and hold the 3.3 down where it > belongs. > > John > Curious, Xilinx recommends 300 ohm resistors. Which ones were you using? -- Ed
From: John Larkin on 15 Oct 2005 23:54 On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:27:16 -0500, "GPE" <See_my_website_for_email(a)cox.net> wrote: > >"John Larkin" <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message >news:dpf3l1t3786r5qor86djqncf2blo1ff3v6(a)4ax.com... >> On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:10:52 +0100, "John Adair" >> <loseitintheblackhole(a)blackholesextreme.co.uk> wrote: >> >>>There are a few ways to do this. Bus switches are the common way >>>especially >>>when you don't want a significant timing penalty. We us these on our >>>development products and you can see 20 bit devices on out Broaddown2 and >>>Mini-Can products. However these are not for the quick knock-up circuit as >>>they are on a 0.4 mm lead pitch. As a bit a plug when using our boards >>>stand-alone the PCI interface on our boards can be used as 50 bit, 5V >>>tolerant, interface using an optional connection module. There are other >>>high bit count devices available as bus switches, or even 5V tolerant >>>logic, >>>but the same problems with non-simple packages will generally occur. >>> >>>We have a module planned that may help with bus switches on-board but >>>probably 10-12 weeks before that is likely to be available. This module >>>will >>>be in DIL format and can be incorporated into stripboards circuits etc for >>>use with anyone's boards. >>> >>>Otherwise you can use resistors to limit the current into the Spartan-3 >>>using the internal protection diodes to limit voltage. If the I/O voltage >>>is >>>set at 3.3V, or higher, then you need to be careful as the limit on the >>>Spartan-3 I/O is 4.05V. 3.3V + 0.7(diode) = 4V. Usually with this >>>technique >>>you drop the I/O voltage slightly to 3.0-3.2V as we do on most of our >>>products to improve the safety margin. If your board hasn't got Vccio low >>>enough then you can use either schottky diodes, or appropriate zeners to >>>0V, >>>to cut in before the internal protection diodes do. >>> >> >> We interfaced a 5-volt uP to a Spartan3 with just series resistors. It >> worked fine, but the high levels on the logic lines snuck through the >> S3 esd diodes and pulled the 3.3 volt supply up to about 3.7. We >> scaled down the programming resistors on the 3.3 volt regulator >> radically to dump enough supply current and hold the 3.3 down where it >> belongs. >> >> John >> > >Curious, Xilinx recommends 300 ohm resistors. Which ones were you using? > >-- Ed > > 180's I think, because we have lots of them in teeny quad packages, and also because there's lots of capacitance on the uP side of the bus... multilayer traces all over the place. I guess the Vccio current of the Spartan was pretty low, too. Actually, it worked fine at 3.7 volts, but it failed our test procedure in the part where we verify all the power rail voltages. John
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