An apology to Androcles
in [Relativity]
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From: Uncle Ben on 30 Jul 2010 15:10 An apology to Androcles I had thought that the Einstein Expansion, proclaimed by Androcles in sci.physics.relativity, was an error of confusing frames of reference. But I was wrong. In his 1905 relativity paper, Einstein showed that x' = xi/gamma, where x' is the length of a moving rod with respect to a stationary frame of reference K and xi is the length of the moving rod with respect to a frame k comoving with it. My difference with Androcles was that I claimed that xi is the proper length L of the rod and the shorter x' is a contracted length L/gamma. I thought that Androcles had these two backward. But no, he has persuaded me otherwise; He agrees that x' is shorter than xi, but he insists that x' is L and xi is an expanded length Lgamma. The proper length of the rod in k increases because of the existence of another frame of reference K moving with respect to it. (This other frame K is called the "stationary" frame in Einstein's paper, but it can be considered moving the other way with respect to the rest frame k of the rod.) This startling fresh idea would never have occurred to me without Androcles's guidance. It seems strange that a nearby frame of reference K, by its relative motion, can expand a rod with respect to the rod's own proper frame k, while the rod maintains a constant length with respect to K itself. Imagine me in a Concorde (k) flying over you on the ground (K) sucking on my cigar that had length L when I bought it. It seems strange that to you the cigar has length L, but because I am flying within your frame of reference, my cigar is Lgamma long. In fact, because of your frame of reference, the Concord is stretched by gamma for me but not for you. I have no idea why my cigar is now longer, because I have no idea that you are down there. It seems odd, doesn't it. Perhaps Androcles will explain it to us. Uncle Ben
From: Androcles on 30 Jul 2010 16:56 "Uncle Ben" <ben(a)greenba.com> wrote in message news:6b303b11-0fc2-49e1-a50e-53e8f2aecf2e(a)f33g2000yqe.googlegroups.com... | An apology to Androcles | | I had thought that the Einstein Expansion, proclaimed by Androcles in | sci.physics.relativity, was an error of confusing frames of | reference. But I was wrong. | | In his 1905 relativity paper, Einstein showed that x' = xi/gamma, | where x' is the length of a moving rod with respect to a stationary | frame of reference K and xi is the length of the moving rod with | respect to a frame k comoving with it. My difference with Androcles | was that I claimed that xi is the proper length L of the rod and the | shorter x' is a contracted length L/gamma. | | I thought that Androcles had these two backward. But no, he has | persuaded me otherwise; He agrees that x' is shorter than xi, but he | insists that x' is L and xi is an expanded length Lgamma. The proper | length of the rod in k increases because of the existence of another | frame of reference K moving with respect to it. (This other frame K is | called the "stationary" frame in Einstein's paper, but it can be | considered moving the other way with respect to the rest frame k of | the rod.) | | This startling fresh idea would never have occurred to me without | Androcles's guidance. | | It seems strange that a nearby frame of reference K, by its relative | motion, can expand a rod with respect to the rod's own proper frame k, | while the rod maintains a constant length with respect to K itself. | | Imagine me in a Concorde (k) flying over you on the ground (K) sucking | on my cigar that had length L when I bought it. It seems strange that | to you the cigar has length L, but because I am flying within your | frame of reference, my cigar is Lgamma long. In fact, because of your | frame of reference, the Concord is stretched by gamma for me but not | for you. I have no idea why my cigar is now longer, because I have no | idea that you are down there. | | It seems odd, doesn't it. Perhaps Androcles will explain it to us. | | Uncle Ben Concorde's length increases, it has two skins like a Dewar flask. The outer skin expands by up to 8 inches due to friction with the air, not by gamma. The gap between the skins, although not a vacuum, is an insulating layer to maintain internal cabin temperature. As to your cigar, there is only one thing that you need explained, and you won't like it. You've been conned by the joker Einstein. He was conned when he was a teenager and he resented it. He was cunning enough to remember how it was done, though. http://www.jimloy.com/geometry/every.htm First published by W. W. Rouse Ball in 1892, when Einstein was 13 years old and had no radio, TV, Playstation or MP3 player. Instead he had a violin, a bicycle, magazines and newspapers. He read a lot. He took Rouse Ball's triangle and made the hypotenuse the same length as the adjacent. To do that he used speed as the legs of the triangle and divided the distances by two different times, t and tau, to give the same speed for each leg. The opposite was v. By Pythagoras, the square on the hypotenuse equals the sum of the squares on the other two sides. (hyp * tau)^2 = (adj * t)^2 + (opp * t)^2, or c^2 = c^2 + v^2. This was snug fit with contemporary sci-fi of 1895. 'Really, this is what is meant by the Fourth Dimension, though some people who talk about the Fourth Dimension do not know they mean it. It is only another way of looking at Time. There is no difference between Time and any of the three dimensions of Space except that our consciousness moves along with it.' -- Herbert George Wells, -- "The Time Machine" -- 1895. "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." --Einstein Einstein was now 16. He failed the entrance exam that would have allowed him to study for a diploma as an electrical engineer at the Eidgen�ssische Technische Hochschule in Zurich. He resented that, too. It takes him ten years, now he's working in the Swiss Patent office looking at applications for patents for new types of cuckoo-clocks, and he still has a hard-on for fooling around with time, but eventually he has his triangle paper with the different time on the hypotenuse sufficiently complicated to pass muster and get published. It was rejected at first, he had to build in some length expansion to agree with Lorentz's contraction, but it was inverted. So, Bonehead... was he a cunning cookie but a charlatan with a sociopathic mentality bordering on the criminal, or just plain idiot savant? You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time. You know the rest. I'll admit it, I was fooled at first too. He did fool me some of the time. Did he fool himself or did he succeed in fooling others while chortling his way to Princeton? I'll tell you something. He had a tiger by the tail and could never let it go or it would rip him to shreds. Nobody is perfect. Your cigar gets shorter because you burn it, not Einstein shines a light on it or Lorentz blows aether at it. The only thing you need accept is that the speed of light is source dependent, and there are stars out there screaming at us to sit up and take notice of that very simple fact. But nobody looks up except astronomers and they are like a crowd at a firework display saying "Oooo... Ahhhh... How pretty...". The evidence is there. LOOK at this curve. Study it. And then explain it. http://www.britastro.org/vss/gifc/00918-ck.gif This is the explanation: http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Doolin'sStar.GIF
From: mpc755 on 30 Jul 2010 20:34 On Jul 30, 3:10 pm, Uncle Ben <b...(a)greenba.com> wrote: > An apology to Androcles > > I had thought that the Einstein Expansion, proclaimed by Androcles in > sci.physics.relativity, was an error of confusing frames of > reference. But I was wrong. > > In his 1905 relativity paper, Einstein showed that x' = xi/gamma, > where x' is the length of a moving rod with respect to a stationary > frame of reference K and xi is the length of the moving rod with > respect to a frame k comoving with it. My difference with Androcles > was that I claimed that xi is the proper length L of the rod and the > shorter x' is a contracted length L/gamma. > > I thought that Androcles had these two backward. But no, he has > persuaded me otherwise; He agrees that x' is shorter than xi, but he > insists that x' is L and xi is an expanded length Lgamma. The proper > length of the rod in k increases because of the existence of another > frame of reference K moving with respect to it. (This other frame K is > called the "stationary" frame in Einstein's paper, but it can be > considered moving the other way with respect to the rest frame k of > the rod.) > > This startling fresh idea would never have occurred to me without > Androcles's guidance. > > It seems strange that a nearby frame of reference K, by its relative > motion, can expand a rod with respect to the rod's own proper frame k, > while the rod maintains a constant length with respect to K itself. > > Imagine me in a Concorde (k) flying over you on the ground (K) sucking > on my cigar that had length L when I bought it. It seems strange that > to you the cigar has length L, but because I am flying within your > frame of reference, my cigar is Lgamma long. In fact, because of your > frame of reference, the Concord is stretched by gamma for me but not > for you. I have no idea why my cigar is now longer, because I have no > idea that you are down there. > > It seems odd, doesn't it. Perhaps Androcles will explain it to us. > > Uncle Ben In this rare instance of someone abandoning their constant delusional denial state of existence, any chance you can take it a step further and answer the following? Will the ripple eventually reach the Earth? If not then why not? 'Hubble Finds Ghostly Ring of Dark Matter' http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/news/dark_matter_ring_feature.html "Astronomers using NASAs Hubble Space Telescope got a first-hand view of how dark matter behaves during a titanic collision between two galaxy clusters. The wreck created a ripple of dark matter, which is somewhat similar to a ripple formed in a pond when a rock hits the water." The ripple will eventually reach the Earth and this is evidence dark matter exists from the galaxy cluster to the Earth. This is evidence dark matter is the medium of space in which light waves propagate. Pressure exerted towards matter by dark matter displaced by the matter is gravity.
From: Uncle Ben on 30 Jul 2010 20:46 On Jul 30, 8:34 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 30, 3:10 pm, Uncle Ben <b...(a)greenba.com> wrote: > > > > > > > An apology to Androcles > > > I had thought that the Einstein Expansion, proclaimed by Androcles in > > sci.physics.relativity, was an error of confusing frames of > > reference. But I was wrong. > > > In his 1905 relativity paper, Einstein showed that x' = xi/gamma, > > where x' is the length of a moving rod with respect to a stationary > > frame of reference K and xi is the length of the moving rod with > > respect to a frame k comoving with it. My difference with Androcles > > was that I claimed that xi is the proper length L of the rod and the > > shorter x' is a contracted length L/gamma. > > > I thought that Androcles had these two backward. But no, he has > > persuaded me otherwise; He agrees that x' is shorter than xi, but he > > insists that x' is L and xi is an expanded length Lgamma. The proper > > length of the rod in k increases because of the existence of another > > frame of reference K moving with respect to it. (This other frame K is > > called the "stationary" frame in Einstein's paper, but it can be > > considered moving the other way with respect to the rest frame k of > > the rod.) > > > This startling fresh idea would never have occurred to me without > > Androcles's guidance. > > > It seems strange that a nearby frame of reference K, by its relative > > motion, can expand a rod with respect to the rod's own proper frame k, > > while the rod maintains a constant length with respect to K itself. > > > Imagine me in a Concorde (k) flying over you on the ground (K) sucking > > on my cigar that had length L when I bought it. It seems strange that > > to you the cigar has length L, but because I am flying within your > > frame of reference, my cigar is Lgamma long. In fact, because of your > > frame of reference, the Concord is stretched by gamma for me but not > > for you. I have no idea why my cigar is now longer, because I have no > > idea that you are down there. > > > It seems odd, doesn't it. Perhaps Androcles will explain it to us. > > > Uncle Ben > > In this rare instance of someone abandoning their constant delusional > denial state of existence, any chance you can take it a step further > and answer the following? > > Will the ripple eventually reach the Earth? If not then why not? > > 'Hubble Finds Ghostly Ring of Dark Matter'http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/news/dark_matter_ring_featur... > > "Astronomers using NASAs Hubble Space Telescope got a first-hand view > of how dark matter behaves during a titanic collision between two > galaxy clusters. The wreck created a ripple of dark matter, which is > somewhat similar to a ripple formed in a pond when a rock hits the > water." > > The ripple will eventually reach the Earth and this is evidence dark > matter exists from the galaxy cluster to the Earth. This is evidence > dark matter is the medium of space in which light waves propagate. > > Pressure exerted towards matter by dark matter displaced by the matter > is gravity.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I have no idea, and this thread is abought the Einstein Expansion.
From: blackhead on 30 Jul 2010 21:39
On 31 July, 01:46, Uncle Ben <b...(a)greenba.com> wrote: > On Jul 30, 8:34 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 30, 3:10 pm, Uncle Ben <b...(a)greenba.com> wrote: > > > > An apology to Androcles > > > > I had thought that the Einstein Expansion, proclaimed by Androcles in > > > sci.physics.relativity, was an error of confusing frames of > > > reference. But I was wrong. > > > > In his 1905 relativity paper, Einstein showed that x' = xi/gamma, > > > where x' is the length of a moving rod with respect to a stationary > > > frame of reference K and xi is the length of the moving rod with > > > respect to a frame k comoving with it. My difference with Androcles > > > was that I claimed that xi is the proper length L of the rod and the > > > shorter x' is a contracted length L/gamma. > > > > I thought that Androcles had these two backward. But no, he has > > > persuaded me otherwise; He agrees that x' is shorter than xi, but he > > > insists that x' is L and xi is an expanded length Lgamma. The proper > > > length of the rod in k increases because of the existence of another > > > frame of reference K moving with respect to it. (This other frame K is > > > called the "stationary" frame in Einstein's paper, but it can be > > > considered moving the other way with respect to the rest frame k of > > > the rod.) > > > > This startling fresh idea would never have occurred to me without > > > Androcles's guidance. > > > > It seems strange that a nearby frame of reference K, by its relative > > > motion, can expand a rod with respect to the rod's own proper frame k, > > > while the rod maintains a constant length with respect to K itself. > > > > Imagine me in a Concorde (k) flying over you on the ground (K) sucking > > > on my cigar that had length L when I bought it. It seems strange that > > > to you the cigar has length L, but because I am flying within your > > > frame of reference, my cigar is Lgamma long. In fact, because of your > > > frame of reference, the Concord is stretched by gamma for me but not > > > for you. I have no idea why my cigar is now longer, because I have no > > > idea that you are down there. > > > > It seems odd, doesn't it. Perhaps Androcles will explain it to us. > > > > Uncle Ben > > > In this rare instance of someone abandoning their constant delusional > > denial state of existence, any chance you can take it a step further > > and answer the following? > > > Will the ripple eventually reach the Earth? If not then why not? > > > 'Hubble Finds Ghostly Ring of Dark Matter'http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/news/dark_matter_ring_featur... > > > "Astronomers using NASAs Hubble Space Telescope got a first-hand view > > of how dark matter behaves during a titanic collision between two > > galaxy clusters. The wreck created a ripple of dark matter, which is > > somewhat similar to a ripple formed in a pond when a rock hits the > > water." > > > The ripple will eventually reach the Earth and this is evidence dark > > matter exists from the galaxy cluster to the Earth. This is evidence > > dark matter is the medium of space in which light waves propagate. > > > Pressure exerted towards matter by dark matter displaced by the matter > > is gravity.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > I have no idea, and this thread is abought the Einstein Expansion.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Androcles rechristened the space LT as "Einstein's expansion" formula: xi = x'/sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2) with x' = x-vt Used correctly, it transforms x coordinates of the same event between different frames, not lengths directly. Androcles plugs in lengths for xi, x' without considering what's involved in measuring a length. For a start, it involves measuring space coordinates at the *same* time and subtracting them from one another to get a length, if it's moving in that frame. If the end points remain at the same locations for all time, then simultaneity doesn't matter. |