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From: Patricia Shanahan on 24 May 2010 10:28 Rhino wrote: > Lew <noone(a)lewscanon.com> wrote in news:htcejg$thk$1(a)news.albasani.net: .... >> Now go, practice, think, assimilate and master what you've already >> been given. >> > It's either that or go look for a job at McDonalds. I'm beginning to > think I know nothing at all about Java despite having coded in it since > 1997.... I am beginning to think that a lot of your problem is not Java but a need for software engineering fundamentals. In particular, I think you need to understand the idea of "separation of concerns". Absent a foundation to guide your design decisions, you are looking for a series of rules of thumb, and get distressed when the people responding to you don't think that way. In practice, most experienced programmers I know apply those ideas, regardless of whether they know the buzzwords, because they work. Patricia
From: Rhino on 25 May 2010 11:08 Patricia Shanahan <pats(a)acm.org> wrote in news:KMCdncve9oFiEWfWnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d(a)earthlink.com: > Rhino wrote: >> Lew <noone(a)lewscanon.com> wrote in news:htcejg$thk$1 @news.albasani.net: > ... >>> Now go, practice, think, assimilate and master what you've already >>> been given. >>> >> It's either that or go look for a job at McDonalds. I'm beginning to >> think I know nothing at all about Java despite having coded in it since >> 1997.... > > I am beginning to think that a lot of your problem is not Java but a > need for software engineering fundamentals. In particular, I > think you need to understand the idea of "separation of concerns". > > Absent a foundation to guide your design decisions, you are looking for > a series of rules of thumb, and get distressed when the people > responding to you don't think that way. In practice, most experienced > programmers I know apply those ideas, regardless of whether they know > the buzzwords, because they work. > > Patricia > I can't disagree with you, Patricia. I am completely self-taught in Java. I bought some books - and not the ones that get raved about like Bloch's Essential Java - tried to pick up some concepts and started writing code. I have exactly zero hours of formal training in OO and Java. I have programmed professionally in COBOL but we all know that it is not OO. That experience has given me a bias towards doing things the way a COBOL programmer would do them which I've been fighting for as long as I've written Java. Obviously, I've been less than fully successful in fighting those tendencies. I need to get those OO principles to the point where they are second nature to me, not a constant struggle. Then, perhaps, I will start to think the way a real Java designer/programmer thinks. But that's a non-trivial thing and I really don't know how to go about it. If I had lots of time and money, I might find a university program somewhere that focused on teaching OO design and programming. But I have neither the time nor the money to do that. I'm open to suggestions on how I can learn what I need to know - and I mean really LEARN it so that it is as intuitive as breating - on a shoestring. As far as the time goes, this will obviously not be something I can master in 20 minutes. I'll have to slog away at it and learn it over time. I need to find an employer very very soon if I am to pay my routine bills. I had hoped to present myself as an experienced Java programmer with a code portfolio that demonstrated some reasonable amount of skill. Clearly, that is not a reasonable dream at this point. I love writing in Java and I would desperately love to get a job coding in Java. I have written several Java classes that work, although I am now having grave doubts about whether they were properly designed. Is there any place for me in a Java development role anywhere? If so, what sort of position should I be applying for? Apparently, I need to look fairly low on the totem pole but do I need to go as low as trainee (where I tend to think of a trainee as someone who needs to be taught both OO and Java from the ground up and has never written a line of Java in his life)? Would junior programmer be too much to hope for? Or should I just keep Java as a hobby and not make any pretence to Java knowledge at all? -- Rhino
From: Sherm Pendley on 25 May 2010 18:02 Rhino <no.offline.contact.please(a)example.com> writes: > I have > programmed professionally in COBOL .... > I need to find an employer very very soon if I am to pay my routine > bills. I had hoped to present myself as an experienced Java programmer Out of curiosity, why? A search for "COBOL" on dice.com returns over 700 job openings. May as well use what you know to pay the bills, and upgrade your skills after hours. It beats flipping burgers - or so I assume, having never written any COBOL. :-) sherm-- -- Sherm Pendley <www.shermpendley.com> <www.camelbones.org> Cocoa Developer
From: Arne Vajhøj on 25 May 2010 18:17 On 25-05-2010 18:02, Sherm Pendley wrote: > Rhino<no.offline.contact.please(a)example.com> writes: >> I have >> programmed professionally in COBOL > > ... > >> I need to find an employer very very soon if I am to pay my routine >> bills. I had hoped to present myself as an experienced Java programmer > > Out of curiosity, why? A search for "COBOL" on dice.com returns over > 700 job openings. May as well use what you know to pay the bills, and > upgrade your skills after hours. It beats flipping burgers - or so I > assume, having never written any COBOL. :-) In many ways the process of getting from requirements to a detailed design (mostly language independent) is a lot more important than coming from that detailed to the source code. I would prefer an experienced software engineer that are unfamiliar with the language over an inexperienced developer that can cite the entire JLS and syntax Java code by review as good as javac. Arne
From: Arne Vajhøj on 25 May 2010 20:53
On 25-05-2010 11:08, Rhino wrote: > I am completely self-taught in Java. I bought some books - and not the > ones that get raved about like Bloch's Essential Java - tried to pick up > some concepts and started writing code. > > I have exactly zero hours of formal training in OO and Java. I have > programmed professionally in COBOL but we all know that it is not OO. > That experience has given me a bias towards doing things the way a COBOL > programmer would do them which I've been fighting for as long as I've > written Java. Obviously, I've been less than fully successful in fighting > those tendencies. > > I need to get those OO principles to the point where they are second > nature to me, not a constant struggle. Then, perhaps, I will start to > think the way a real Java designer/programmer thinks. > > But that's a non-trivial thing and I really don't know how to go about > it. If I had lots of time and money, I might find a university program > somewhere that focused on teaching OO design and programming. But I have > neither the time nor the money to do that. > > I'm open to suggestions on how I can learn what I need to know - and I > mean really LEARN it so that it is as intuitive as breating - on a > shoestring. As far as the time goes, this will obviously not be something > I can master in 20 minutes. I'll have to slog away at it and learn it > over time. Find material about GoF patterns, Java EE core patterns etc. on the net and study them. They should give some input. > I need to find an employer very very soon if I am to pay my routine > bills. I had hoped to present myself as an experienced Java programmer > with a code portfolio that demonstrated some reasonable amount of skill. > Clearly, that is not a reasonable dream at this point. > > I love writing in Java and I would desperately love to get a job coding > in Java. I have written several Java classes that work, although I am now > having grave doubts about whether they were properly designed. Is there > any place for me in a Java development role anywhere? If so, what sort of > position should I be applying for? Apparently, I need to look fairly low > on the totem pole but do I need to go as low as trainee (where I tend to > think of a trainee as someone who needs to be taught both OO and Java > from the ground up and has never written a line of Java in his life)? > Would junior programmer be too much to hope for? > > Or should I just keep Java as a hobby and not make any pretence to Java > knowledge at all? Claiming to be an experienced Java programmer may be stretching it too much. Just claim that you are an experienced programmer with *some* Java experience and a keen interest in Java technologies. True. And positive (at least for the actual team - I can not vouch for HR). Arne |