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From: Sherm Pendley on 26 May 2010 09:21
Arne Vajhøj <arne(a)vajhoej.dk> writes:

> On 25-05-2010 18:02, Sherm Pendley wrote:
>> Rhino<no.offline.contact.please(a)example.com> writes:
>>> I have
>>> programmed professionally in COBOL
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> I need to find an employer very very soon if I am to pay my routine
>>> bills. I had hoped to present myself as an experienced Java programmer
>>
>> Out of curiosity, why? A search for "COBOL" on dice.com returns over
>> 700 job openings. May as well use what you know to pay the bills, and
>> upgrade your skills after hours. It beats flipping burgers - or so I
>> assume, having never written any COBOL. :-)
>
> In many ways the process of getting from requirements to a
> detailed design (mostly language independent) is a lot more
> important than coming from that detailed to the source code.
>
> I would prefer an experienced software engineer that are
> unfamiliar with the language over an inexperienced developer
> that can cite the entire JLS and syntax Java code by review as
> good as javac.

Completely agreed, but that's not quite what I was getting at. You're
talking about hiring people; I'm talking about getting hired. If the
hiring managers in Rhino's area aren't following your advice, and are
demanding specific experience in Java, there's little or nothing he
can do about that in the immediate future. Certainly, he can learn
Java, but that takes time.

That being the case, and with bills looming, IMHO it makes sense to
broaden the job search to include jobs for which he *does* have direct
experience. Such a job won't do much to help Rhino reach his long-term
goal, but neither will unemployment or a McJob.

sherm--

--
Sherm Pendley <www.shermpendley.com>
<www.camelbones.org>
Cocoa Developer
From: Jim Janney on 27 May 2010 13:39
Rhino <no.offline.contact.please(a)example.com> writes:
[snip]
> Am I just getting a very very inaccurate impression of the job market on
> the basis of the immense, almost inhuman, expectations that are stated in
> job ads these days? Is that just a fad that everyone else knows not to
> take seriously? Or are the Java shops really that demanding?

Most ads are probably not a good indicator of what is actually needed.
They may describe the mythical ideal candidate, the one they hope to
get but know they won't find. Or if it's a large company the ad has
to go the the HR department which rewrites it based on its own agenda.
Small companies are often more flexible, but less likely to post ads
in the first place. If there's a Java users' group near you,
attending their meetings is a good way both to learn and to make
contacts.

> And is "learning on the job" completely abandoned as a principle? For
> instance, I've never used CORBA in my life; I'm not even sure what it is
> or does. But if I found myself in a job where CORBA was being used, I'd
> be more than happy to learn whatever aspects of CORBA I needed to know.
> It might take a few days or weeks to get fluent, depending on how
> complext it is, but I'd certainly do my best. But it seems like employers
> want job candidates to know every tool and technology that they'd ever
> think of using before they hire someone. They seem to want to avoid any
> possibility of someone going on a course or needing a bit of time to
> learn something....

My last formal training was in 1984. Things have changed a bit since
then. Learning as you go, often on your own time, is the reality and
the only way to survive for more than a few years. This is where a
passion for programming really helps.

--
Jim Janney
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