Anybody willing to decipher Forth program
in [Lisp]
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From: Slobodan Blazeski on 23 Mar 2010 16:02 On Mar 23, 6:24 pm, Hugh Aguilar <hughaguila...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Mar 22, 4:37 pm, refun <re...(a)nospam.gmx.com> wrote: > > > Using basic CLOS features is rather intuitive, but if you want all the details, > > read AMOP and inspect a live CL system which comes with source code, that way > > you'll understand both what it's supposed to do, and how it does it, but keep > > in mind that implementations are given a certain degree of freedom on how > > things are implemented, so you can't expect things which are not documented(in > > the ANSI CL standard and the MOP) to stay the same in each implementation. > > I actually have the AMOP book, but have never read it. Is PLT Scheme > different enough that reading AMOP would mess me up? Should I wait > until later on when I have graduated/downgraded to CL before I read > AMOP? What's up with all this "mess me up" thing? There's a lot of lispers that know multiple dialects (cl , scheme, emacs, clojure, Qi, NewLisp, Arc) and many even create one of their own. Its sort of rite of passage in life of many lispers. Just make your pick and start hacking. Later you'll be able to switch if you find something more suiting to your needs. But don't walk two roads in the same time it will make the trip much longer. Slobodan
From: joswig on 23 Mar 2010 16:06 On 23 Mrz., 20:08, Hugh Aguilar <hughaguila...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Mar 23, 12:07 pm, Eli Barzilay <e...(a)barzilay.org> wrote: > > > ... if your > > ultimate goal *is* clos, then it's probably better to go with CL right > > from the start. > > My ultimate goal is still CLOS. I've had AMOP on my bookshelf for > quite a few years. Every time I walk past I think: "I should read that > book before I die." I feel the same way about the Spanish version of > "Don Quixote," but AMOP is somewhat more of a realistic goal. :-) If you want to LEARN CLOS or Common Lisp, I don't think AMOP is a good book for that. AMOP is really great, but it is not for beginners and not even for average Lisp programmers. It is an advanced text and the topic is not CLOS, but CLOS in CLOS. I would read it when I'm interested in implementing or designing object-systems or when implementing libraries that need to change/adapt the object-system itself (for example a persistency library). The book is nothing that a beginner would need. The people who developed CLOS and wrote AMOP both had a decade of OOP usage in various forms with quite extensive software (LOOPS, Flavors, ...) - so even though the technology is not that new, there is this experience distilled in CLOS and the book AMOP - experience that also might not be relevant for everybody. At that time (70s - 80s) there was a lot of experimenting and few 'standards', so CLOS was designed to be able to support not a single object-oriented style, but a full range - especially since there were different object-oriented systems that were both very extensive and quite unique for Lisp. To port some of that software to CLOS, since CLOS was supposed to be the standard OO extension for Common Lisp, CLOS needed some esoteric features. To not being forced to provide these esoteric features directly in CLOS, CLOS was designed to be extensible. Features like that could be multi-valued slot, slot facets, slot demons, per-slot inheritance rules, prototypes, various inheritance mechanisms, views, ... I would recommend the usual books like Practical Common Lisp, Lisp 3rd Edition (Winston/Horn), Keene's book and some of the papers that explain CLOS: http://www.dreamsongs.com/CLOS.html For a lot of software the basic CLOS features of classes and methods are enough. That should be enough to start. .... > If I did focus on CL right away, which version and which libraries > would I use to write a GUI program? To learn CLOS and GUI programming any of Allegro CL and LispWorks is fine. Both have most of their libraries CLOS-based. A bit more complicated, but interesting, would be something like McCLIM + SBCL. But that requires quite a bit understanding of CLOS.
From: Slobodan Blazeski on 23 Mar 2010 16:09 On Mar 18, 8:58 pm, Hugh Aguilar <hughaguila...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Mar 17, 2:26 pm, roland.kaufm...(a)networld.at wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>> "Ray" == Raymond Toy <toy.raym...(a)gmail.com> writes: > > > > On 3/16/10 5:59 PM, Hugh Aguilar wrote: > > >> LC53 is just a toy program; nobody who knows anything about encryption > > >> would use the linear-congruential system. I did think of one use for > > >> LC53 though. This would be a text-editor that is designed specifically > > >> for women to write their diaries, and in which they use LC53 > > >> encryption to prevent their boyfriends from reading the text.. Assuming > > >> that no women are computer programmers (true as far as I know), they > > >> will never find out how easy it is to crack the LC53. I may write this > > > > Oh, come on! Of course there are computer programmers who are women. I > > > know some myself. And just because they're not programmers doesn't mean > > > they wouldn't be able to crack LC53. There are quite a few women > > > mathematicians too. > > > For example, Joan Boyar who wrote > > ... > > I actually knew who Joan Boyar was already. I just meant that I've > never met a woman programmer personally --- at least not one who > didn't rely heavily on cut-and-paste programming and who would > endlessly discuss software design, but never actually write any > software. Of course, there are a lot of men who do that too... Since your goal is CLOS you will get to know one very well http://www.amazon.com/Object-Oriented-Programming-Common-Lisp-Programmers/dp/0201175894 Slobodan
From: joswig on 23 Mar 2010 16:16 On 23 Mrz., 21:06, "jos...(a)corporate-world.lisp.de" <jos...(a)lisp.de> wrote: > On 23 Mrz., 20:08, Hugh Aguilar <hughaguila...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > On Mar 23, 12:07 pm, Eli Barzilay <e...(a)barzilay.org> wrote: > > > > ... if your > > > ultimate goal *is* clos, then it's probably better to go with CL right > > > from the start. > > > My ultimate goal is still CLOS. I've had AMOP on my bookshelf for > > quite a few years. Every time I walk past I think: "I should read that > > book before I die." I feel the same way about the Spanish version of > > "Don Quixote," but AMOP is somewhat more of a realistic goal. :-) > > If you want to LEARN CLOS or Common Lisp, > I don't think AMOP is a good book for that. > > AMOP is really great, but it is not for beginners and not even > for average Lisp programmers. It is an advanced text and > the topic is not CLOS, but CLOS in CLOS. I would read it Just to mention it, because most people won't know it (especially since it is written in German), for those who understand German and are interested in AMOP topics, there is the excellent book by Harry Bretthauer: Entwurf und Implementierung effizienter Objektsysteme für funktionale und imperative Programmiersprachen am Beispiel von Lisp Available as PDF: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.83.7416&rep=rep1&type=pdf
From: Pillsy on 23 Mar 2010 16:38
On Mar 23, 3:08 pm, Hugh Aguilar <hughaguila...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Mar 23, 12:07 pm, Eli Barzilay <e...(a)barzilay.org> wrote: > > ... if your > > ultimate goal *is* clos, then it's probably better to go with CL right > > from the start. > My ultimate goal is still CLOS. I've had AMOP on my bookshelf for > quite a few years. Every time I walk past I think: "I should read that > book before I die." I feel the same way about the Spanish version of > "Don Quixote," but AMOP is somewhat more of a realistic goal. :-) I think that AMOP will be very difficult to understand if you don't have a reasonable understanding of CLOS going into it. It defines CLOS in terms of itself, with classes, generic functions and methods all being instances of CLOS classes. That's how it puts the "meta" into "metaobject protocol". [...] > If I did focus on CL right away, which version and which libraries > would I use to write a GUI program? Try the LispWorks Personal Edition. It's available gratis for OS X, Windows and Linux, and has a GUI library that's pretty fun to play around with. Cheers, Pillsy |