Apple II Debugger
in [ASM]
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From: Phil Carmody on 30 Jul 2006 12:52 rhyde(a)cs.ucr.edu writes: > johnzulu wrote: > > The current market for assemblers in the embedded world is not hot > > too. PIC and Atmel are providing free assemblers with their product. > > Well, I must admit that I've not looked at embedded assemblers in about > three years, but back then outfits like 2900 AD were still getting $500 > for their assembler (and $1500 for a C compiler). Largely because they > had a much better feature set. For most of Freescale's small processors, the CodeWarrior (now part of Freescale) C compiler and assembler (in fact the full development suite) can be free. One only needs to pay if the image one is generating is to exceed a certain size. (32K IIRC, but don't quote me on that.) And for most of their larger processors, there's what is effectively a freely downloadable linux distribution, which of course comes with gcc etc. Phil, speaking as an individual, not as a Freescale employee. -- The man who is always worrying about whether or not his soul would be damned generally has a soul that isn't worth a damn. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr. (1809-1894), American physician and writer
From: Dragontamer on 30 Jul 2006 13:04 rhyde(a)cs.ucr.edu wrote: > johnzulu wrote: > > Not sure of the rest. From the look of things providing development > > tools does not look lucrative anymore. > > Particularly on the desktop. For example, Borland is getting out of the > software development tools business. Definitely a casualty of open > source. I'm sure fools like Rene will tout this as a good thing, but I > doubt that the OSS crowd would ever create something like Delphi on > their own. The OSS model is great for copying existing ideas, but > radical brainstorming to produce something like VB or Delphi just > doesn't work well in the OSS model. I'd have to disagree with you on this one. OSS do have innovative ideas. The Abiword project for example, is beginning to work on AbiCollab, which would be a plugin that allows users across the web to edit the same document in realtime. http://www.abisource.com/~uwog/abiword/abicollab.htm As for something like VB or Delphi... I dunno much on Delphi, but GNUstep seems to be making strides in the direction of VB, somewhat copying Cocoa and NextSTEP... but still goes along in that direction. http://www.gnustep.org/experience/DevelopmentDemonstration.html (I especially like how textboxes are connected to code by click-and-drag) Debian's apt system is great, as is FreeBSD's port system. Truely innovative to just do "aptitude upgrade", and all the programs are upgraded together, to resolve dependancies and so forth. (supposedly FreeBSD's port system is better... but I haven't used it yet) Fasm's "Virtual" keyword is another innovative little feature developed on an OSS product. There is certainly innovation in OSS products. Do you not think your HLA is somewhat innovative? :-p But anyway, there are ways to keep OSS and still make a business model. Cedega, which is based on WINE, sells builds their product for a monthly subscription, while the code remains free on their CVS server. So its not necessarily mutually exclusive. --Dragontamer
From: rhyde on 30 Jul 2006 16:35 Dragontamer wrote: > > I'd have to disagree with you on this one. OSS do have innovative > ideas. > > The Abiword project for example, is beginning to work on AbiCollab, > which would be a plugin that allows users across the web to edit the > same document in realtime. Can you honestly claim that this idea hasn't been floating around for a long time and that commercial apps haven't tried this? What I'm calling "innovation" here are brain-storm ideas resulting in concepts that have never before been done. > > http://www.abisource.com/~uwog/abiword/abicollab.htm > > As for something like VB or Delphi... I dunno much on Delphi, but > GNUstep seems to be making strides in the direction of VB, somewhat > copying Cocoa and NextSTEP... but still goes along in that direction. But that's exactly the point I'm making -- the OSS crowd are *copying* stuff rather than invented brand-new, never-before-thought-of, kind of stuff. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there aren't *any* new ideas in OSS. There are lots of small things that are innovative and come out of OSS, but the really big stuff, that requires a concerted effort to develop, generally comes from commercial development. > Debian's apt system is great, as is FreeBSD's port system. Truely > innovative to just do "aptitude upgrade", and all the programs > are upgraded together, to resolve dependancies and so forth. > (supposedly FreeBSD's port system is better... but I haven't used > it yet) Having spent considerable time installing FreeBSD over and over again, I'm not real impressed by FreeBSD's "ports" that forces me to swap CDs a couple of dozen times because it installs things in the order *it* wants to, rather than their order on the CDROMs. Forgive me for not being impressed. > > Fasm's "Virtual" keyword is another innovative little feature developed > on an OSS product. First of all, I'm not entirely sure it's as innovative as you think. I dimly recall a feature like this in IBM's mainframe assemblers. But the point is irrelevant. I'm not talking about new features in a traditional product. I'm talking about completely new ways of solving problems. Delphi, for example, isn't just Pascal with a few new features. It truly represents a new programming paradigm over previous languages (well, except for VB, of course). > > There is certainly innovation in OSS products. Do you not think your > HLA is somewhat innovative? :-p Not like Delphi. HLA is more of a collection of existing good ideas all put into one package. Most of the "innovations" in the product are like "virtual" in FASM. Small ideas that are cool in conjunction with the other features, but aren't much of a standalone innovation. About the only thing in HLA I know of that I've never before seen are the context-free macro facilities. The parts of HLA that make it good for education were well-established ideas that predated HLA -- using HLL-like control structures (MASM & TASM), having a decent and substatial library (The C stdlib, the UCR stdlib for 80x86 assembly programmers), supporting reasonable data types (MASM & TASM), and having a good compile-time language (IBM's HLAsm and MASM/TASM). HLA is not a radical shift in the way you would do assembly language programming. It's just a culmination of good ideas all packaged together. > > But anyway, there are ways to keep OSS and still make a business model. > Cedega, which is based on WINE, sells builds their product for a > monthly > subscription, while the code remains free on their CVS server. So > its not necessarily mutually exclusive. Well, we were actually talking about how OSS is killing commercial companies that have invested tons of money in software R&D. The problem with the OSS model is that OSS developers work on what they *feel* like working on. There is no incentive, like a paycheck, to get them to work on stuff that wouldn't be their first choice and to keep them working on a (large) project when it ceases to be interesting. Even companies like IBM, which has invested a *ton* of money in OSS, probably wrote it all off as a marketing expense rather than a development expense. Cheers, Randy Hyde
From: rhyde on 30 Jul 2006 16:38 Phil Carmody wrote: > > A Randy by name can be found in: > > Lisa Programming Language Pages 1-5.pdf > > No portion of Lisa, its documentation or accompanying diskette may > be reproduced in any form without the express written permission of > the publishers, "On-Line Systems", and the author, "Randy Hyde". Well, that would be the On-Line Systems version of the product (they picked it up after Programma went under). I don't doubt that Programma didn't list me as the author. I seem to recall they liked the idea of everything thinking they'd made it themselves (like their Apple PIE editor). Then again, it could have just been an oversight. It doesn't really matter, though. Except in Rene's mind, I don't think that there is any question at this point who the author of that product was. Cheers, Randy Hyde
From: rhyde on 30 Jul 2006 16:47
Betov wrote: > > > How many assemblers have *you* sold? > > You can't even *give* your stuff away for free. At least people have > > been willing to *pay* for my stuff. That speaks volumes, dude. > > Agrea, clown: There are indeed so many idiot who seem > to really believe that you are an Assembly Programmer, > that i have to address you my congratulations for your > competency in matter of Propaganda. And as Julienne says, you have a lot to learn in that department. Once again, many thanks for all the people you've pushed my way by your abusive nature. > > By the way, did you notice that, dispiting your insane > noises, there was nobody around for taking the risk of > saying that he had used Your Lisa toy... and that old > timers seem to not even have heard of it? No, I didn't notice that at all. I did notice someone around here who said that they *had* used the product, though. And it certainly wasn't the first time someone has acknowledged using LISA in this newsgroup. And as for your "old-timers", of whom do you speak? You do realize that that product was out before many of the long-time posters around here were even *born*? And, of course, a few of the "old-timers" around here were nailing houses together at the time LISA was out and had no clue about the impending PC revolution. :-) > > One another question of interrest would be to ask about > how many of the victims who have _payed_ for reading > your bullshits, would have really read them down to the > end, and, eventually, if they would have learned some > real Assembly concepts, whereas they could have get > innoumerous real informative materials for free, all > over the Net for zero bucks. I'm sorry, that sentence doesn't parse. You might try calming down a bit and rewriting it. If you're saying that people are upset because they bought AoA and then discovered it could be had on-line, well, I've never met too many people like that. I do, however, know of many people who started reading it on-line and then decided they'd rather have a hard copy and went out and bought it. Now I must admit that I'm as surprised as you by this. When No Starch Press first approached me about publishing AoA, I flat out told them that I didn't believe the book would sell well because it was available for free on-line. The publisher assured me that he could sell the book and he was quite right. Indeed, having it available free on line has probably helped sales more than hurt them. > > Well... anyway, _yes_, it "speaks volumes"... as says > Master Pdf riding a bicycle: > > "Hey! M'a! Look! I am an Teacher!" And your point? Who have *you* taught, btw? > > "Hey! M'a! Look! I am published!" And your point? And what have you gotten published, might I ask? > > "Hey! M'a! Look!... without the hands!" > > "Hey! M'a! Look!... without the teeth!" Sour grapes don't suit you well, Rene. Grow up. Get past your jealousies. Do something productive with your life rather than whining about the successes other people have. Cheers, Randy Hyde |