Atmel AVR assembler
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From: randyhyde on 25 Jul 2005 16:45 Betov wrote: > > > Indead. I regulary take a look at all Assemblers Boards, > and the number of Posts, for example, at FASM Board, is > now beating the number of MASM Board Posts. Too bad you don't spend more time working on your assembler. Then the number of users for it might actually increase. > > Also, considering that there is, so to say, no real Asmers > using MASM (99% of them are HLL Programmers making occasional > use of MASM for HLLs' enhancements...), Yes, we'll discount the fact that there are 10x as many MASM programmers as any other assembly programmers by simply claiming that they don't count. :-) > and that most of FASM > users are real Asmers doing real things (like the MenuetOS > developers, and such...), How many MenuetOS developers are there, exactly? Not to knock a great little program, but if this is the example you're using to say that assembly programmers are doing "real" things, then we all may as well give up and switch to C. > the real growing rate of the real > "ASM-population", is quite encouraging. No thanks to you :-) What's the RosAsm board up to these days? Last time I checked, HLA's mailing was adding about as many new members every couple of months as RosAsm's board has since it's inception. When *your* assembler starts to attract users, then you'll probably be in a good position to comment on the growing "asm population". Until then, your comments smell of a "cheap ride on someone else's coattails." And while FASM is doing quite well, NASM is still, by far, the number two assembler in common use today. The reason you don't see this is because you don't frequent places where non-Win32 programming is done. An interesting thing as you're an avowed Microsoft-hater. You need to get out a little more and see the world. Quit being so provincial. There's a whole 'nother world out there. Where assemblers like Gas and NASM (and, yes, HLA) are commonly used. Not to knock FASM, but you *really* overrate its current popularity. For example, how often do you see FASM code posted to this very newsgroup? As for the posts on the FASM board, perhaps one reason there are so many posts there is because there isn't really any decent documentation for FASM? NASM has it; MASM has it; TASM has it; HLA has it; GoAsm has it; heck, even RosAsm has better documentation than FASM. This means that people *need* a support board like FASM in order to make basic use of the assembler. With these other assemblers, people stand a chance of figuring things out by reading the documentation for their assembler. So it makes sense that the FASM board is a little busier than other boards -- it *is* the documentation vehicle for FASM. Hopefully this will change someday soon, but for now, that's just the way it is. And as for the "growing asm population", do keep one thing in mind -- people also get bored and move on to other things. Take a look at the turnover on most boards and newsgroups (we'll ignore this one, you are an abnormally large reason why the turnover is so great here). You get a few core people who hang around forever, and then a lot of transients. The "core" isn't growing very rapidly, I'm afraid. Just as many advanced assembly programmers move on to something else as enter the "core" group. Largely, this is because most of the "core" people who constant post to one of these boards are students. They finally graduate, get a job (programming in HLLs), and largely lose interest in assembly language. That's a shame, but that's the way it's been for quite some time. So here's the question: what are YOU going to do to stop this? Do you actually think that slamming other products and people here in ALA (and elsewhere) is what is going to convince more people to stick with assembly? Do you think your little "jihad" is going to convince more people to become expert assembly language? Surely you aren't so stupid as to actually believe this is true; even after various members of your own development team have told you about the harm you're doing to your own project by your posts to this newsgroup? You can keep your head buried in the sand and believe whatever fantasies you want about the "assembly rebirth." It just isn't going to happen the way you envision it (not that it's going to happen at all, mind you). If you want more people to learn assembly, you've got to deal with the fact that 99% of them are going to use assembly to write little functions they can call from their HLL code (and if you want to contribute to that, you need to develop a tool that allows this). If you want more people to learn assembly, you've got to stop berating people who decide to use a tool that you don't particularly approve of. It's too bad you're not getting the kind of recognition you obviously feel you deserve. I mean, when the ReactOS team doesn't want to have anything to do with you, that's really got to hurt given your "promotion" of that OS for all these years (promotion they want nothing to do with, apparently). It's a really sad thing when the people who should be welcoming you with open arms are trying to distance themselves from you. As I've said before, thank God you're not a positive HLA promoter, that seems to be the kiss of death. I'm sure Tomasz is a little less than pleased that you keep trying to associate yourself with his product and "promote" it (I've not heard from Tomasz directly, but I have heard some FASM users talk about you behind your back, and it ain't pretty). So what are you going to do about this? Do you *really* want to promote assembly language? Or do you simply want to continue chasing more people away? Your choice. Cheers, Randy Hyde
From: Paul Marciano on 25 Jul 2005 16:52 Herbert Kleebauer wrote: > Have to write some AVR code and therefore have read the > AVR Instruction Set manual and tried the assembler included > in AVR studio. I think the used syntax is completely > unusable, so I decided to write my own assembler. I've written ten of thousands of lines of 68K assembler in my time. I think it's a very easy to use instruction set format. I've also written Z80, 6509, 6809, ARM, PIC, 8501, 80x86 and PowerPC. They all have unique qualities and assembly format. I can see the appeal of wanting a prettier assembly language for AVR than the standard one. I think it's great that you've taken it on, and if you enjoy working with it then that's marvellous. But if this is for a work project, don't use it. Use the standard syntax. Regardless of your sense of aesthetics, you would be a POOR ENGINEER if you impose a non-standard language on your company. Sooner or later someone may have to support your work and you would be creating a barrier for them. It's simply not your place to declare, in a professional environment, that the standard used by all AVR programmers is "unclean" and unilaterally implement something else. For your own personal hobby, it's great - do whatever is easier for you. Be happy. Share you work, as you're doing. For work, you're being paid as a professional engineer. Behave like one. Regards, Paul.
From: Betov on 25 Jul 2005 16:58 randyhyde(a)earthlink.net ýcrivait news:1122321505.586953.82790 @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: > Now it's *your* life so you're welcome to spend the time creating any > syntax you want for an AVR assembler, and I encourage you to do what > *you* want to do; but by virtue of your post you're asking if people > around here think it's a good idea and overwhelmingly, the vote is > "no"! Ever noticed that when you post your x86/faux-68K code that > people get confused reading it? (Indeed, I remember the first time *I* > saw it, I thought it was 68K code.) You make a big point about claiming > that the syntax is just for you, but then you post your code to a > public newsgroup and people just don't follow what you're doing. As > someone else in this thread has pointed out, seeing this type of > "personal syntax" is dreadful when they're asked to support the code > later in life (or simply comment on it when posted to a newsgroup). Very funny paragraph, once we know that the individual who wrote the above, is also the one who developed the most absurd and awfull Syntax every seen, for x86. Of course, "it's Master Pdf life", even though nobody ever "encouraged him to do that", and if he succuded to make an impressive complete unanimity of all the Assembly Programmers whose "vote was 100% "no"!". :))))) Betov. < http://rosasm.org >
From: randyhyde on 25 Jul 2005 18:42 Betov wrote: > > Very funny paragraph, once we know that the individual > who wrote the above, is also the one who developed the > most absurd and awfull Syntax every seen, for x86. See point (2) below. > > Of course, "it's Master Pdf life", Yep, as per my comments, *I* provided documentation, tutorials, and support tools. > even though nobody > ever "encouraged him to do that", and if he succuded > to make an impressive complete unanimity of all the > Assembly Programmers whose "vote was 100% "no"!". > See point (4) below. Cheers, Randy Hyde There's no need to respond point-by-point to any Rene ("Betov") Tournois post. His posts are all repetitive, saying the same nonsense over and over again. Therefore, we'll just use "canned" responses to answer his nonsense. Here's the key to use: (1) Rene's continued personal attacks on people and name-calling, (2) Rene's continued attacks on products, (3) Rene making unsubstantiated (and ridiculous) claims about RosAsm. (4) Rene making ridiculous statements about other products or situations, of which he has no knowledge.
From: randyhyde on 25 Jul 2005 18:44
Betov wrote: > Ben Bradley <ben_nospam_bradley(a)frontiernet.net> écrivait > news:va58e1l9h89a21plnjbqkb606v184c3ni5(a)4ax.com: > > > It's my > > decades of having written a significant amount of assembly myself that > > makes me do it... > > > > ----- > > http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley > > :) > > A man who builds guitars cannot be completely bad, but > i see no Asm thingie, there. Are you one more of these > guy with a big mouth, about Assembly, without anything > to show? See point (4) below. > > Not even a small real life Application, with Sources, > to show, after _decades_ of activities? See point (4) below. Cheers, Randy Hyde There's no need to respond point-by-point to any Rene ("Betov") Tournois post. His posts are all repetitive, saying the same nonsense over and over again. Therefore, we'll just use "canned" responses to answer his nonsense. Here's the key to use: (1) Rene's continued personal attacks on people and name-calling, (2) Rene's continued attacks on products, (3) Rene making unsubstantiated (and ridiculous) claims about RosAsm. (4) Rene making ridiculous statements about other products, of which he has no knowledge. |