Avoiding LispWorks Personal annoyances
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From: Evan I on 10 Oct 2009 05:15 Raffael Cavallaro <raffaelcavallaro(a)pas.espam.s.il.vous.plait.mac.com> writes: > On 2009-10-08 18:26:48 -0400, Evan I <tali713(a)nospam.yahoo.evar.com> said: > >> Unless you want to claim that any astute user of a >> computer reverse engineers all their software because they guess and >> confirm how some small part of it works. > > Guessing, no. Confirming, yes. Sytematic confirmation of an hypothesis > of how something operates is the very definition of reverse > engineering. Thank you for the clarification, am now considering new profession. -- tali713
From: Ron Garret on 10 Oct 2009 05:23 In article <hapavk$es$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>, Dave Searles <searles(a)hoombah.nurt.bt.uk> wrote: > Assuming > generously a one-penny average marginal cost per download That is neither generous nor realistic. It assumes that the cost of developing the software and maintaining the servers when not in active use is zero. But those costs are clearly non-zero, and they have to be recouped somehow if the business is to make even the 5% profit margin you so "generously" allow them. How do you propose they do that? rg
From: Evan I on 10 Oct 2009 05:25 Dave Searles <searles(a)hoombah.nurt.bt.uk> writes: > Espen Vestre wrote: >> Dave Searles <searles(a)hoombah.nurt.bt.uk> writes: >> >>> Well, tough. It's called free speech, and if in my opinion >>> intentionally crippling software is evil, I have a right to state that >>> opinion. >> >> You're free to buy an uncrippled version of the same software whenever >> you want. > > Or to not do so. That's called freedom of transaction. I'm also free > to modify my private property in almost any way I choose. That's > called property rights. REAL property rights. Oh, and I'm free to talk > about it. That's called the First Amendment. > >> I have some sympathy for the /principles/ you and others are advocating >> here, but I don't approve of using a small friendly lisp company as a >> target. > > I don't consider any company charging a 150,000% markup (no that is > not a typo, read on for the math) on something "friendly". Assuming > generously a one-penny average marginal cost per download and the > previously stated $1500 price tag -- that's 0.01 dollar expenses, > $1500.00 revenue, and therefore $1499.99 profit per transaction. That > isn't "a small friendly lisp company", it's highway robbery. In any > other business besides software, music, DVDs, illegal drugs, > extortion, and prostitution, you're happy to be making 5% margins on > each transaction. Even big pharma gets a few hundred percent margins > thanks to its big evil patent monopolies. Yet the mob, the > entertainment industry, and the software industry get to charge much > higher margins, and we can't seem to get the latter two on tax > evasion. I really had no intention of continuing on this thread, but I believe you are missing the detail whre paying them for the software helps them to eat and continue working on making it better. It them same vein as you don't really own, you just license(not particularly in support of the model but it's not my call) you also aren't really paying for the software so much as you are paying for continued developement and support . Expecially when dealing with a small group of programmers. Just my two cents. For the record: I advocate buying software if you think it is worth doing so, and using free, as in beer (or otherwise), software if you don't feel the cost of the non-free software is worth it. But everyone has the right to make their own decisions, and be called on them. -- tali713
From: Espen Vestre on 10 Oct 2009 05:43 Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon(a)flownet.com> writes: > That is neither generous nor realistic. It assumes that the cost of > developing the software and maintaining the servers when not in active > use is zero. Thank you for pointing that out. -- (espen)
From: Evan I on 10 Oct 2009 06:49
Raffael Cavallaro <raffaelcavallaro(a)pas.espam.s.il.vous.plait.mac.com> writes: > On 2009-10-09 12:50:45 -0400, Kaz Kylheku <kkylheku(a)gmail.com> said: > >> So for instance, you don't consider it moral to tell creators that they >> can't log your keystrokes, or turn your computer into a member of a thousand >> element botnet which attacks machines no the net? > > If the license says this ***Don't Use the Product!*** > > > If you find a license disagreeable for some reason you are free not to > enter into it. > > Just because you find some clause of a license objectionable doesn't > give you the right to unilaterally redefine the license. Just don't > enter into the license. There is one little detail that seems to be missed in this discussion. There is nothing stopping the creators from including a clause of the form... “A, B, C etc... are limitations with LispWorks Personal Edition; any circumvention of these limitations is a violation of this license.” Now since this is not included, one is left wondering, If this were the intent, then why wasn't such a phrase included? The only conclusion that I can draw is that it was not the intent. Or the license has a loophole no lawyer would have allowed, and the authors should have hired one. But as reading the license will demonstrate, this is probably not the case; as in clause two they manage to clearly close issues involving time limited evaluation copies. Since it would only take adding a few words to this clause, “or avoiding limitations in Personal Edition”, to achieve the intent that has been implied exists, we are again left wondering. Why not? Further the readme gives clear intent of these limitations, which must be assessed before deciding whether said intent has been violated. To paraphrase. Just because you believe some clause of a license to have an intent doesn't give you the right to unilaterally redefine the license. Unless of course you authored the license in which case, all future licenses can be redefined. -- tali713 Relevant Docs Below 1.1.* from the README Copyright (c) 2008 by LispWorks Ltd. All Rights Reserved. 1 Introduction 1.1 LispWorks Editions LispWorks is available in three product editions on the Mac OS X, Windows, Linux and FreeBSD platforms. The main differences between the editions are outlined below. Further information about the LispWorks Editions can be found at www.lispworks.com/products Note: on Solaris and HP-UX LispWorks is licensed differently to other platforms, as detailed in LispWorks for UNIX. 1.1.1 Personal Edition LispWorks Personal Edition allows you to explore a fully enabled Common Lisp programming environment and to develop small- to medium-scale programs for personal and academic use. It includes: * Native graphical IDE * Full Common Lisp compiler * COM/Automation API on Microsoft Windows LispWorks Personal Edition has several limitations designed to prevent commercial exploitation of this free product. These are: * A heap size limit * A time limit of 5 hours for each session. * The functions save-image, deliver, and load-all-patches are not available. * Initialization files are not available. * Professional and Enterprise Edition module loading is not included. LispWorks 5.1 Personal Edition has no license fee. Download it from www.lispworks.com/downloads 1.1.2 Professional Edition LispWorks 5.1 Professional Edition includes: * Fully supported commercial product * Delivery of commercial end-user applications and libraries * CLIM 2.0 on X11/Motif and Windows * 30-day free "Getting Started" technical support 1.1.3 Enterprise Edition LispWorks 5.1 Enterprise Edition provides further support for the software needs of the modern enterprise, including: * All the features of the Professional Edition * Database access through the Common SQL interface * Portable distributed computing through CORBA * Expert systems programming through KnowledgeWorks and embedded Prolog compiler LispWorks¨ Software License Agreement Personal Edition IMPORTANT: IN ORDER TO INSTALL THIS SOFTWARE, YOU MUST FIRST READ THE FOLLOWING TERMS AND CONDITIONS AND THEN CLICK THE "CONTINUE" BUTTON. BY CLICKING ON THE "AGREE" BUTTON THAT FOLLOWS, YOU ARE EXPRESSLY AGREEING TO BE BOUND BY ALL OF THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO ALL OF THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT, CLICK ON THE "DISAGREE" BUTTON AND QUIT THE INSTALLER. YOU MAY THEN RETURN THE SOFTWARE TO THE VENDOR FOR A REFUND. 1. License Grant. This agreement ("Agreement") sets out the terms and conditions on which LispWorks Ltd ("the Vendor") grants to you, the Customer ("you") a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to use the Vendor's LispWorks Personal Edition software product and related documentation ("Software") solely for the purpose of developing and testing applications written in the Lisp programming language. 2. Other Versions and Products. You acknowledge that the media on which the Software is supplied may contain multiple versions of the Software as well as the Vendor's other products, including, but not limited to, the Professional Edition and Enterprise Edition of the Software. You agree that, unless you have a time limited license for the purposes of evaluating the Software prior to purchase ("Evaluation License"), you are licensed to use only the version or product for which you have paid. If you have an Evaluation License your license will terminate immediately on the termination of the time-limited evaluation license key issued to you and in any event not later than the expiration of one month from the date when your evaluation license was issued. You agree not to use the Software after this period for any purpose without obtaining a license from the Vendor. If you order and pay for licenses for another version or for an optional or additional product, then such version or product shall become licensed Software under this Agreement, and your use of it shall be subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. 3. Non-Commercial Use Only. You may only use the Software for not-for-profit purposes including teaching and research and personal use. You may also use the Software for evaluation purposes. Use of the Software for the development of any commercial software product is strictly prohibited under the terms of this Agreement and such use shall serve to automatically terminate the license granted hereunder. 4. Installation. This license allows a single user to use a single "Installation" of the Software at any one time. For the purposes of this Agreement, an "Installation" means a single deployment of the Software whether on a physical computer or on a virtual machine (being a single instance of an operating system running on physical hardware where such hardware may also support other operating systems each of which operates as a virtual computer). 5. Copying, Modification and Distribution. You may not copy the Software except as necessary to exercise your rights under this Agreement and to make one (1) copy of the Software in machine readable form for back-up or archival purposes only. You may not translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, modify or create derivative works based on the materials, except as expressly permitted by the law of this Agreement. You may modify the Software and/or merge it into another program solely for your use in accordance with this Agreement. Any portion of the Software merged into another program will continue to be subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. Except for the distribution of runtime versions of the software ("Runtimes") in accordance with the following paragraph, this license does not permit the distribution of the Software, or any part thereof, to any third party. 6. Distribution of Runtimes. You may not copy or distribute any Runtimes. 7. Purchase Orders. You agree to pay the appropriate license fees to the Vendor within thirty (30) days of the invoice date. Acceptance of the Software shall be deemed to occur on the tenth day after shipment. In no event shall the terms of any purchase order become binding on the Vendor even if an acknowledgment copy is signed by the Vendor. 8. Ownership; Confidentiality. You acknowledge and agree that the Software contains the confidential and proprietary information of the Vendor and its licensors and is provided solely under the terms and conditions of this Agreement. All right, title and interest in and to the Software, including, but not limited to, patent copyright, trade secret, trademark and all other intellectual property rights are and shall remain in the Vendor or its licensor. You shall not remove any product identification, copyright notices, or other legends set forth on the Software and shall reproduce all such notices on any copies. You shall have no right in the Vendor's or its third party licensors' trademarks in connection with the Software, or with its promotion or publication, without the Vendor's prior written approval. 9. Limited Warranty. The Vendor warrants for a period of thirty (30) days from the date of original delivery that (a) the Software will perform substantially in accordance with the accompanying user documentation when used as described therein; and (b) that the media containing the Software will not prove defective under normal use. The Vendor does not warrant that the Software will be error free or that the Software will meet your requirements. The Vendor's sole responsibility under this warranty will be, at its option, (1) to replace at no additional charge any defective media containing the Software that are returned within the thirty (30) day warranty period or (2) to use reasonable efforts to correct errors that are reported to the Vendor within the foregoing warranty period or (3) to refund to you license fees paid for use of the Software. THE REMEDIES SET FORTH IN THIS SECTION 9 ARE YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDIES AT LAW OR IN EQUITY FOR BREACH OF WARRANTY. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, THE VENDOR DISCLAIMS ALL OTHER WARRANTIES OR REPRESENTATIONS, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF QUALITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. 10. Limitation of Liability. EXCEPT IN RESPECT OF PERSONAL INJURY OR DEATH CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF LISPWORKS LTD OR ANY OTHER LIABILITY WHICH MAY NOT BE EXCLUDED BY LAW IN NO EVENT SHALL THE VENDOR OR ITS LICENSORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY LOSS OF PROFITS, LOSS OF BUSINESS, LOST SAVINGS LOSS OF DATA OR ANY DIRECT OR INDIRECT SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES EVEN IF THE VENDOR HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES IN ADVANCE. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE VENDOR'S LIABILITY EXCEED THE AMOUNT OF LICENSE FEES PAID BY YOU FOR USE OF THE SOFTWARE. NOTHING IN THIS AGREEMENT LIMITS LIABILITY FOR FRAUDULENT MISREPRESENTATION. 11. US Government Restricted Rights. This Software is a commercial computer software program developed at private expense and is provided with restricted rights. The Software provided herein may not be used, reproduced, or disclosed by the Government except as set forth in this EULA and as provided in DFARS 227.7202-1(a), 227.7202-3(a) (1995), FAR 12.212(a)(1995), FAR 52.227-19, and/or FAR 52.227-14 Alt III, as applicable. Manufacturer: LispWorks Ltd, St John's Innovation Centre, Cowley Road, Cambridge CB4 0WS, UK. You agree to include this Notice in any software application, including any associated documentation, you distribute using this Software, in whole or in part. Rights reserved under the copyright laws of the United States. 12. Statutory Rights. This license gives you specific legal rights and you may also have other rights that vary from country to country. Some jurisdictions do not allow the exclusion of implied warranties, or certain kinds of limitations or exclusions of liability, so the above limitations and exclusions may not apply to you. Other jurisdictions allow limitations and exclusions subject to certain conditions. In such a case the above limitations and exclusions shall apply to the fullest extent permitted by the laws of such applicable jurisdictions. If any part of the above limitations or exclusions is held to be void or unenforceable, such part shall be deemed to be deleted from this Agreement and the remainder of the limitation or exclusion shall continue in full force and effect. Any rights that you may have as a consumer (that is, a purchaser for private as opposed to business, academic or government use) are not affected. 13. Export Control. You may not export or re-export the Software or any underlying information or technology except in full compliance with all applicable laws and regulations of all applicable countries. 14. Governing Law. This Agreement shall be construed in accordance with the laws of England and the parties submit to the non-exclusive jurisdiction of the English courts. 15. Non-Assignment; Entire Agreement. Except as in accordance with this Agreement, you shall not sell, assign, sublicense or otherwise transfer the Software without the Vendor's prior written consent. Any such attempted transfer shall be void. This Agreement constitutes the entire agreement between the parties and supersedes all other communications between the parties relating to the subject matter hereof. This Agreement may only be modified by a writing signed by the Vendor. 16. Termination. The Vendor may terminate this Agreement if you fail to comply with any of the terms and conditions of this Agreement. Upon termination, you shall cease using the Software and shall destroy or return to the Vendor all copies of the Software. Copyright © 2008 LispWorks Ltd. All rights reserved. LISPWORKS is a registered trademark of LispWorks Ltd. ----- |