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From: Moe Trin on 12 Oct 2007 16:11 On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake, in article <juh3u4-s57.ln1(a)psd.news.gnode.com.au>, Peter D. wrote: >Christopher Hunter wrote: >> In the house I was staying in in Maine last month, there were two >> supplies - the 110V supply fed all the lighting and general wall >> sockets. The 220V supply was in the kitchen and utility room - it >> was used for the washing machine, cooker, and (strangely) >> refrigerator and deep freeze. The 220 in the utility room is for the electric clothes dryer, not the machine that gets the water and soap. In the kitchen, the non portable cooking appliances that use electricity for heating (stove, stovetop, oven) run on 220 for the same reason as the dryer in the utility room. They are using larger amounts of power (2-10KW) than is considered practical for the 110-130 volt supply. Use of 220 for an ordinary refrigerator or freezer is HIGHLY unlikely (to the extent that I've never seen either as a home appliance) as neither appliance needs significant amounts of power (usually less than 200 VA). The electric water heater and permanently connected electrical heating and air-conditioning is almost certainly 220 volt as well. >OK American electricity is strange. It's no more bizarre than the "interesting" things done in the UK. >Your light switches are upside down. Up = on has been the convention here for over 100 years. However there is no law that requires the switch to be mounted vertically, or to have a level that moves up/down. In fact, none of the light switches in my house have such levers. >I assume that you have different plugs that will not fit into the >wrong socket. Please engage brain - we have lawyers here who would be happy to litigate if anyone were so incredibly stupid as to use plugs that could be mis-matched. For your edification, there are three common 120 volt plugs - the ancient non-polarized plug (two prongs like || on half inch centers, with each prong 1/4 x 1/16 inch in cross-section and 11/16th inch long), a polarized plug where the return lead (grounded lead) is 5/16 x 1/16 so that it only goes into the socket one way (NEMA 1-15P) and the grounded (3 pin) plug, which uses either parallel pin design and adds a third ground pin offset like this . | | That's the NEMA 5-15P. If you look back far enough, you can find a two prong 220 volt plug (two of them actually) of similar dimensions except that one or both of the prongs are rotated 90 degrees as in | - or - - but I haven't seen either since the 1950s. The current low power 220 volt plug adds a third ground pin like so -.- and this is a NEMA 6-15P but is exceptionally rare. The more common 220 volt plug - used by clothes dryers, and non-portable cooking appliances has three prongs, with the two "hot" leads being 1/2 x 1/8 inch, 1 3/16 inch long and mounted diagonally like so / \ (60 degree angle) with an "L" shaped earth pin located off to -i one side like that - and about 1/4 inch on each leg of the 'L' shape. The three pins are on a nominal 1/2 inch radius - which is about twice the dimension of the 120 volt plug. I suspect most people would have difficulty inserting a 120 volt plug into a 220 volt socket. >In the distant future devices won't care. My shaver will accept >12 to 240 Volts AC or DC. assuming you have the correct plug or adapter, as it seems that the the AC line plugs used around the world aren't all compatible, and the 12 VDC plug tends to be different as well. But then, I don't expect to find many automobiles with high voltage, much less AC, and a 1500 Watt load on 12 VDC isn't likely to be using a simple plug/socket. Old guy
From: Robert M. Riches Jr. on 12 Oct 2007 19:38 On 2007-10-12, Moe Trin <ibuprofin(a)painkiller.example.tld> wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake, in article >>I assume that you have different plugs that will not fit into the >>wrong socket. > > Please engage brain - we have lawyers here who would be happy to > litigate if anyone were so incredibly stupid as to use plugs that > could be mis-matched. For your edification, there are three > common 120 volt plugs - the ancient non-polarized plug (two prongs > like || on half inch centers, with each prong 1/4 x 1/16 inch in > cross-section and 11/16th inch long), a polarized plug where the > return lead (grounded lead) is 5/16 x 1/16 so that it only goes into > the socket one way (NEMA 1-15P) and the grounded (3 pin) plug, which > uses either parallel pin design and adds a third ground pin offset > like this . > | | > That's the NEMA 5-15P. If you look back far enough, you can find a > two prong 220 volt plug (two of them actually) of similar dimensions > except that one or both of the prongs are rotated 90 degrees as in | - > or - - but I haven't seen either since the 1950s. The current low > power 220 volt plug adds a third ground pin like so -.- and this is > a NEMA 6-15P but is exceptionally rare. The more common 220 volt > plug - used by clothes dryers, and non-portable cooking appliances has > three prongs, with the two "hot" leads being 1/2 x 1/8 inch, 1 3/16 > inch long and mounted diagonally like so / \ (60 degree angle) with > an "L" shaped earth pin located off to -i one side like that - > and about 1/4 inch on each leg of the 'L' shape. The three pins are > on a nominal 1/2 inch radius - which is about twice the dimension of > the 120 volt plug. I suspect most people would have difficulty > inserting a 120 volt plug into a 220 volt socket. The USA 220V plugs with the rotated prongs are a _whole_ lot more recent than the 1950s. The 5-6KW generator I bought in the USA in 1996 or 1997 has two sockets that fit 110V plugs like | | - | . or . (15A, 110V) (20A, 110V) and two sockets that fit 220V plugs like | - - - . or . (15A, 220V) (20A, 220V) (Some fringe groups preach that the ground pin should be up, but 99.9% of all outlets I have seen have the ground pin down.) I had no difficulty buying the latter types at least on one occasion some time 1996 or more recently. In fact, I just checked the garage and I have two of them in a storage box in case I need them. I think I recall reading documentation that the rotation of the left prong (with ground down) tells the current: vertical for 15A, horizontal for 20A; while the rotation of the right plug tells the voltage: vertical for 110V, horizontal for 220V. -- Robert Riches spamtrap42(a)verizon.net (Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)
From: Moe Trin on 13 Oct 2007 17:51 On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake, in article <slrnfh01bh.lrm.rob(a)one.localnet>, Robert M. Riches Jr. wrote: >Moe Trin <ibuprofin(a)painkiller.example.tld> wrote: >> If you look back far enough, you can find a two prong 220 volt plug >> (two of them actually) of similar dimensions except that one or both >> of the prongs are rotated 90 degrees as in | - or - - but I haven't >> seen either since the 1950s. The current low power 220 volt plug >> adds a third ground pin like so -.- and this is a NEMA 6-15P but is >> exceptionally rare. >The USA 220V plugs with the rotated prongs are a _whole_ lot >more recent than the 1950s. Yes, but all of those that are the same dimensions as the 110 volt plugs are three pin and for a very good reason. >The 5-6KW generator I bought in the USA in 1996 or 1997 has two sockets >that fit 110V plugs like > > | | - | > . or . > (15A, 110V) (20A, 110V) Are you sure the right on is a - | and not -| | (NEMA 5-20P)? . . >and two sockets that fit 220V plugs like > > | - - - > . or . > (15A, 220V) (20A, 220V) I haven't had a generator with 220V connectors since the early 1990s, so I can't say there. However the only connectors I've seen of this size for 220V have been three wire, not two. Likewise I don't recall seeing these connectors in common use _in_ a house, for the simple reason that most stuff that is 220V is 30 Amp or better. >(Some fringe groups preach that the ground pin should be up, >but 99.9% of all outlets I have seen have the ground pin >down.) The outlet that was in the utility room for the washing machine was a single socket 20 Amp 125 Volt 3 wire, with the return pin "T" shaped rather than flat (NEMA 5-20R), but the markings clearly wanted the ground pin on top. But all of the molded flat plugs (where the cord comes out parallel with the wall rather than perpendicular) seem to be such that the cord comes out on the ground pin side. I have seen them the other way, but those are much less common. The Whirlpool appliances we have are all 'cord out the ground pin side'. >I had no difficulty buying the latter types at least on one >occasion some time 1996 or more recently. In fact, I just >checked the garage and I have two of them in a storage box >in case I need them. If those are three pin, then yes. But two pin? >I think I recall reading documentation that the rotation of >the left prong (with ground down) tells the current: >vertical for 15A, horizontal for 20A; while the rotation of >the right plug tells the voltage: vertical for 110V, >horizontal for 220V. I'm sure NEMA has a document where this is explained. If you did have a - | two pin connector, what's to prevent you from inverting the plug to insert it into a | - socket? Blade size? I certainly wouldn't count on that. Old guy
From: Robert M. Riches Jr. on 13 Oct 2007 18:27 On 2007-10-13, Moe Trin <ibuprofin(a)painkiller.example.tld> wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake, in article ><slrnfh01bh.lrm.rob(a)one.localnet>, Robert M. Riches Jr. wrote: > >>Moe Trin <ibuprofin(a)painkiller.example.tld> wrote: > >>> If you look back far enough, you can find a two prong 220 volt plug >>> (two of them actually) of similar dimensions except that one or both >>> of the prongs are rotated 90 degrees as in | - or - - but I haven't >>> seen either since the 1950s. The current low power 220 volt plug >>> adds a third ground pin like so -.- and this is a NEMA 6-15P but is >>> exceptionally rare. > >>The USA 220V plugs with the rotated prongs are a _whole_ lot >>more recent than the 1950s. > > Yes, but all of those that are the same dimensions as the 110 volt > plugs are three pin and for a very good reason. > >>The 5-6KW generator I bought in the USA in 1996 or 1997 has two sockets >>that fit 110V plugs like >> >> | | - | >> . or . >> (15A, 110V) (20A, 110V) > > Are you sure the right on is a - | and not -| | (NEMA 5-20P)? The plug is - | but the socket is -| |. >>and two sockets that fit 220V plugs like >> >> | - - - >> . or . >> (15A, 220V) (20A, 220V) > > I haven't had a generator with 220V connectors since the early 1990s, so > I can't say there. However the only connectors I've seen of this size > for 220V have been three wire, not two. Likewise I don't recall seeing > these connectors in common use _in_ a house, for the simple reason that > most stuff that is 220V is 30 Amp or better. True. >... > >>I had no difficulty buying the latter types at least on one >>occasion some time 1996 or more recently. In fact, I just >>checked the garage and I have two of them in a storage box >>in case I need them. > > If those are three pin, then yes. But two pin? Yes, they are three pin. >>I think I recall reading documentation that the rotation of >>the left prong (with ground down) tells the current: >>vertical for 15A, horizontal for 20A; while the rotation of >>the right plug tells the voltage: vertical for 110V, >>horizontal for 220V. > > I'm sure NEMA has a document where this is explained. If you did > have a - | two pin connector, what's to prevent you from inverting > the plug to insert it into a | - socket? Blade size? I certainly > wouldn't count on that. You're right that a two-pin plug with the less-than-usual rotation would be potentially dangerous. I suspect all such plugs are required to have three pins as a safeguard. -- Robert Riches spamtrap42(a)verizon.net (Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)
From: Peter D. on 14 Oct 2007 09:24
on Saturday 13 October 2007 06:11 in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake Moe Trin wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake, in > article <juh3u4-s57.ln1(a)psd.news.gnode.com.au>, Peter D. wrote: > >>Christopher Hunter wrote: [snip] >>OK American electricity is strange. > > It's no more bizarre than the "interesting" things done in the UK. Yes, I've been to the UK. They have a few weird wired things. ;-) >>Your light switches are upside down. > > Up = on has been the convention here for over 100 years. That was half a joke. It is purely cultural, like driving on the wrong side of the road. ;-) There is no logical reason to chose one convention over its opposite, but it does pay to copy your neighbors. Electricity traveled around the world pretty quickly. Most related conventions are about the same age. > However > there is no law that requires the switch to be mounted vertically, > or to have a level that moves up/down. In fact, none of the light > switches in my house have such levers. Heretic! In times past you would have been in danger of being dragged before the House un-American committee. That is more than half a joke. >>I assume that you have different plugs that will not fit into the >>wrong socket. I was seriously expecting no answer, or a simple "yes". > Please engage brain - we have lawyers here who would be happy to > litigate if anyone were so incredibly stupid as to use plugs that > could be mis-matched. For your edification, there are three > common 120 volt plugs - the ancient non-polarized plug (two prongs > like || on half inch centers, with each prong 1/4 x 1/16 inch in > cross-section and 11/16th inch long), a polarized plug where the > return lead (grounded lead) is 5/16 x 1/16 so that it only goes into > the socket one way (NEMA 1-15P) Two pin? So an non-polarised plug fit a polarised socket? > and the grounded (3 pin) plug, which > uses either parallel pin design and adds a third ground pin offset > like this . > | | > That's the NEMA 5-15P. We sometimes get a variety of plugs and leads supplied with new electrical equipment. Ours have three flat pins, / \ | Active, neutral and earth. Earth is the vertical one in the diagram. Technically there are two different sockets. 10 Amps is standard, the (rare) 15 Amp socket has a thicker earth pin and will accept 10A and 15A plugs. There is also a two pin plug used for double insulated devices. (It fits into the standard 3 pin socket.) I think that we have finally settled on the world standard of 230 Volts for 50 Hz supplies, it was 240 Volts in Victoria, Australia. There is a high power 3 phase 415 Volt connector, but you don't see them in homes. > If you look back far enough, you can find a > two prong 220 volt plug (two of them actually) of similar dimensions > except that one or both of the prongs are rotated 90 degrees as in | - > or - - but I haven't seen either since the 1950s. The current low > power 220 volt plug adds a third ground pin like so -.- and this is > a NEMA 6-15P but is exceptionally rare. The more common 220 volt > plug - used by clothes dryers, and non-portable cooking appliances has > three prongs, with the two "hot" leads being 1/2 x 1/8 inch, 1 3/16 > inch long A half inch x 1/8" x 1 3/16"? > and mounted diagonally like so / \ (60 degree angle) with > an "L" shaped earth pin located off to -i one side like that - > and about 1/4 inch on each leg of the 'L' shape. The three pins are > on a nominal 1/2 inch radius - which is about twice the dimension of > the 120 volt plug. I suspect most people would have difficulty > inserting a 120 volt plug into a 220 volt socket. Don't underestimate what can be achieved with simple tools, brute force and stupidity. >>In the distant future devices won't care. My shaver will accept >>12 to 240 Volts AC or DC. > > assuming you have the correct plug or adapter, as it seems that the > the AC line plugs used around the world aren't all compatible, They are very different. Round pins, flat pins, thick pins, thin pins, various spacings and orientations. > and the > 12 VDC plug tends to be different as well. But then, I don't expect > to find many automobiles with high voltage, much less AC, and a 1500 > Watt load on 12 VDC isn't likely to be using a simple plug/socket. > > Old guy -- sig goes here... Peter D. |