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From: Ste on 14 Dec 2009 22:56
Hello, all!

I'm interested in exploring digital design with FPGAs for both learning
purposes and to help with a senior design project I'll be working on. To
start, I spent my entire 1st day of winter break (yay!) looking at
different starter boards, and I'm pretty much lost. I was wondering if
someone could explain the practical differences between the various FPGA
boards currently on Digilent's website:
http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Catalog.cfm?NavPath=2,400&Cat=10
It would be awesome if someone could give me a recommendation on what board
would be best for me based on the info in this post. I'm typically looking
for something ≤$200, but I'm willing to pay $300 for the XUP Virtex-II
Pro (if necessary), since it seems like a killer deal for students.

I guess a lot of this depends on what type of applications you will use the
boards for, so I guess I'll explain a bit about my project:
This past fall semester of school, I took an image processing course and
also my first DSP course. I want to start my senior design project early
(due May 2011) so I came up with an idea that would emphasize what I
learned in those two courses. Anyway, my project's goal is to tap the
18-bit RGB lines on a Nintendo DS and produce a 640x480p/i YPbPr/Analog-RGB
video output. Though that would probably be something complicated on its
own, my main focus would be various selectable screen output modes. For
example:
Mode A) Top Screen only, 256 x 192 centered with black borders all around
Mode B) Bottom Screen only, 256 x 192 centered with black borders all
around
Mode C) Top Screen only, 256 x 192 resized (bilinear interpolation) to 640
x 480
Mode D) Top screen directly above Bottom screen, no gap between screens
Mode E) Top screen above Bottom screen, 64-line gap filled with
interpolated data from both screens and/or motion predicted pixels

...and quite a few more modes.

I found a thread on here where someone was trying to accomplish something
very similar:
http://www.fpgarelated.com/usenet/fpga/show/77345-1.php
The recommended board for that type of project is the Spartan-3. But my
project will probably require more/better "stuff" to be able to implement
the various video processing functions, right? Plus, that's an old thread
and there are a lot of newer boards out there now, so I don't know what to
think. I'm totally lost.

Oh, and here's some more specific info on what I plan to do:
I would like to be taking FFTs to help with the video scaling, so I would
prefer something capable of that. But, I can avoid the frequency domain
altogether if the price difference for that capability is too large. Also,
I would probably need to buffer more than one frame of video for the gap
interpolation, and I'm assuming the Spartan-3's 1MB of RAM won't cut it.
Though, it seems that people like the RAM on the Spartan-3 because it is
SRAM.

To anyone who actually read the mess of words I posted above, I thank you.
Feel free to respond and help out in any way. I'll take any info that can
be given to me and as always, it would be greatly appreciated.

-Stephan


---------------------------------------
This message was sent using the comp.arch.fpga web interface on
http://www.FPGARelated.com
From: austin on 15 Dec 2009 11:44
Stephan,

The V2Pro board is not supported in the latest ISE release, version
11, so you would be "stuck" using the last ISE version (10), forever.
Which is not bad, per se, it is just that we can't continue supporting
these old parts forever, so something has to get dropped in the
software as we move forward.

There are a lot of these V2P boards out there, so there is quite a
community of users, and existing designs. It also does not need a
programming cable (uses the on card USB and Digilent software).

The latest and greatest Spartan part, is now Spartan 6, and Digilent
does not have an S6 board (yet), but the Spartan 3A (and older 3E)
series, and 3AD (for DSP) are still fully supported by Xilinx (no
versions of these boards either at Digilent) and development boards
from other suppliers would have more features and be more useful for
what you want to do. The difference with Spartan from Virtex, is
Virtex has larger parts, more of everything, and run faster. The 3A D
series has more DSP blocks, so you can make more filters than in the
same fabric size 3A part, for example.

http://www.xilinx.com/products/boards_kits/spartan.htm

The XUP (Xilinx University Program) offers the Virtex 5 board for
students (through their professors), and it has plenty of SRAM, DDR
DRAM, etc. plus video interfaces for monitors. It has a very large
part, the xc5vlx110t (includes transceivers). I do most of my work on
such a board, and I haven't run out of room yet. One has to obtain
this board, and the software to support it through the XUP. Digilent
also sells this board directly (but if not part of the XUP, you have
to buy a version of the software, too, as this board's part, the
xc5vlx110t is not in the "free" version of the tools).

Sorry for the confusion....

Back to Digilent, Inc: the lowest cost board that probably can do
what you desire is the Nexsys2 Spartan 3E board. One advantage is
that all you need is the USB cable from board to pc to program it, as
opposed to the other solutions which require the Xilinx Programming
Programming Cable (more expensive as it has a pod on the end of it for
JTAG, and the other programming modes of the part).

Next, I would choose the 3A DSP 1800 kit from the xilinx.com website.
But a hidden cost is that you need the Xilinx programming cable for
this, as opposed to the built in programming solution from Digilent.

The next choice is the V5 XUP board (in my opinion). Also need a
Xilinx programming cable for this (like the 3A DSP above).

Austin

From: John Adair on 15 Dec 2009 12:35
The V2pro board from Digilent is good value but do take note of the
software issues Austin talks about.

For what you are describing I'd suggest a board with either SDRAM/DDR
and/or a FPGA that has lots of blockrams. The Spartan-3A DSP does fit
the bill well but there are not many cheap boards with these chips on.
From our products I would suggest Darnaw1, Drigmorn2, Drigmorn3 for
the lower end of what you need. A better fit may be the next board we
launch next month which is Raggedstone2. It has DDR3 and because it
has Spartan-6 XC6SLX45T a reasonable blockram count. This board with
student discount will be at the top of your range but will have a USB
Cable to ship with it.

John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd.


On 15 Dec, 03:56, "Ste" <lords...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hello, all!
>
> I'm interested in exploring digital design with FPGAs for both learning
> purposes and to help with a senior design project I'll be working on.  To
> start, I spent my entire 1st day of winter break (yay!) looking at
> different starter boards, and I'm pretty much lost.  I was wondering if
> someone could explain the practical differences between the various FPGA
> boards currently on Digilent's website:http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Catalog.cfm?NavPath=2,400&Cat=10
> It would be awesome if someone could give me a recommendation on what board
> would be best for me based on the info in this post. I'm typically looking
> for something ≤$200, but I'm willing to pay $300 for the XUP Virtex-II
> Pro (if necessary), since it seems like a killer deal for students.
>
> I guess a lot of this depends on what type of applications you will use the
> boards for, so I guess I'll explain a bit about my project:
> This past fall semester of school, I took an image processing course and
> also my first DSP course.  I want to start my senior design project early
> (due May 2011) so I came up with an idea that would emphasize what I
> learned in those two courses.  Anyway, my project's goal is to tap the
> 18-bit RGB lines on a Nintendo DS and produce a 640x480p/i YPbPr/Analog-RGB
> video output.  Though that would probably be something complicated on its
> own, my main focus would be various selectable screen output modes.  For
> example:
> Mode A) Top Screen only, 256 x 192 centered with black borders all around
> Mode B) Bottom Screen only, 256 x 192 centered with black borders all
> around
> Mode C) Top Screen only, 256 x 192 resized (bilinear interpolation) to 640
> x 480
> Mode D) Top screen directly above Bottom screen, no gap between screens
> Mode E) Top screen above Bottom screen, 64-line gap filled with
> interpolated data from both screens and/or motion predicted pixels
>
> ..and quite a few more modes.
>
> I found a thread on here where someone was trying to accomplish something
> very similar:http://www.fpgarelated.com/usenet/fpga/show/77345-1.php
> The recommended board for that type of project is the Spartan-3.  But my
> project will probably require more/better "stuff" to be able to implement
> the various video processing functions, right?  Plus, that's an old thread
> and there are a lot of newer boards out there now, so I don't know what to
> think.  I'm totally lost.
>
> Oh, and here's some more specific info on what I plan to do:
> I would like to be taking FFTs to help with the video scaling, so I would
> prefer something capable of that.  But, I can avoid the frequency domain
> altogether if the price difference for that capability is too large.  Also,
> I would probably need to buffer more than one frame of video for the gap
> interpolation, and I'm assuming the Spartan-3's 1MB of RAM won't cut it.
> Though, it seems that people like the RAM on the Spartan-3 because it is
> SRAM.
>
> To anyone who actually read the mess of words I posted above, I thank you..
> Feel free to respond and help out in any way.  I'll take any info that can
> be given to me and as always, it would be greatly appreciated.
>
> -Stephan
>
> ---------------------------------------        
> This message was sent using the comp.arch.fpga web interface onhttp://www..FPGARelated.com

From: Patrick Maupin on 19 Dec 2009 23:09
On Dec 15, 11:35 am, John Adair <g...(a)enterpoint.co.uk> wrote:
> The V2pro board from Digilent is good value but do take note of the
> software issues Austin talks about.
>
> For what you are describing I'd suggest a board with either SDRAM/DDR
> and/or a FPGA that has lots of blockrams. The Spartan-3A DSP does fit
> the bill well but there are not many cheap boards with these chips on.
> From our products I would suggest Darnaw1, Drigmorn2, Drigmorn3 for
> the lower end of what you need. A better fit may be the next board we
> launch next month which is Raggedstone2. It has DDR3 and because it
> has Spartan-6 XC6SLX45T a reasonable blockram count. This board with
> student discount will be at the top of your range but will have a USB
> Cable to ship with it.
>
> John Adair
> Enterpoint Ltd.
>
> On 15 Dec, 03:56, "Ste" <lords...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello, all!
>
> > I'm interested in exploring digital design with FPGAs for both learning
> > purposes and to help with a senior design project I'll be working on.  To
> > start, I spent my entire 1st day of winter break (yay!) looking at
> > different starter boards, and I'm pretty much lost.  I was wondering if
> > someone could explain the practical differences between the various FPGA
> > boards currently on Digilent's website:http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Catalog.cfm?NavPath=2,400&Cat=10
> > It would be awesome if someone could give me a recommendation on what board
> > would be best for me based on the info in this post. I'm typically looking
> > for something ≤$200, but I'm willing to pay $300 for the XUP Virtex-II
> > Pro (if necessary), since it seems like a killer deal for students.
>
> > I guess a lot of this depends on what type of applications you will use the
> > boards for, so I guess I'll explain a bit about my project:
> > This past fall semester of school, I took an image processing course and
> > also my first DSP course.  I want to start my senior design project early
> > (due May 2011) so I came up with an idea that would emphasize what I
> > learned in those two courses.  Anyway, my project's goal is to tap the
> > 18-bit RGB lines on a Nintendo DS and produce a 640x480p/i YPbPr/Analog-RGB
> > video output.  Though that would probably be something complicated on its
> > own, my main focus would be various selectable screen output modes.  For
> > example:
> > Mode A) Top Screen only, 256 x 192 centered with black borders all around
> > Mode B) Bottom Screen only, 256 x 192 centered with black borders all
> > around
> > Mode C) Top Screen only, 256 x 192 resized (bilinear interpolation) to 640
> > x 480
> > Mode D) Top screen directly above Bottom screen, no gap between screens
> > Mode E) Top screen above Bottom screen, 64-line gap filled with
> > interpolated data from both screens and/or motion predicted pixels
>
> > ..and quite a few more modes.
>
> > I found a thread on here where someone was trying to accomplish something
> > very similar:http://www.fpgarelated.com/usenet/fpga/show/77345-1.php
> > The recommended board for that type of project is the Spartan-3.  But my
> > project will probably require more/better "stuff" to be able to implement
> > the various video processing functions, right?  Plus, that's an old thread
> > and there are a lot of newer boards out there now, so I don't know what to
> > think.  I'm totally lost.
>
> > Oh, and here's some more specific info on what I plan to do:
> > I would like to be taking FFTs to help with the video scaling, so I would
> > prefer something capable of that.  But, I can avoid the frequency domain
> > altogether if the price difference for that capability is too large.  Also,
> > I would probably need to buffer more than one frame of video for the gap
> > interpolation, and I'm assuming the Spartan-3's 1MB of RAM won't cut it..
> > Though, it seems that people like the RAM on the Spartan-3 because it is
> > SRAM.
>
> > To anyone who actually read the mess of words I posted above, I thank you.
> > Feel free to respond and help out in any way.  I'll take any info that can
> > be given to me and as always, it would be greatly appreciated.
>
> > -Stephan
>
> > ---------------------------------------        
> > This message was sent using the comp.arch.fpga web interface onhttp://www.FPGARelated.com

Agree about the Nexys2. They work great and have a transfer DLL you
can use for data as well as FPGA programming, and lots of switches and
blinky-lights to simplify debugging and report status, etc. In short,
they're great. BUT...

They *still* (after promising me they were working on it a couple of
years ago) don't have any Linux drivers. There are a couple of open-
source solutions floating around, but I don't think anybody has tidied
it up and put a bow on it (but I could be wrong -- haven't looked
lately). Where I work, we've probably purchased around 30 or 40 Nexys
and Nexys 2 boards over the last 3 years, but I probably would have
bought twice that many if I could easily use it on my Linux systems
with minimal development.

Pat
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