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From: Paul on 7 Aug 2010 11:27
Graham wrote:
> On Aug 7, 2:33 pm, Graham <g0...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Aug 5, 11:48 am, Paul <nos...(a)needed.com> wrote:
>>

>>> Graham wrote:
>>>> Running winxp-pro , sata hard drives with intel ahci
>>>> Ok So go to disk properties ....... error checking .. select
>>>> auto fix ... error message ' needs to run at re-start.
>>>> re-boot and chkdsk reports ntfs file system, cannot access
>>>> volume , fails to run and boots into windows
>>>> Try with window's running ...
>>>> by -not- checking the 2 tic boxes .. chdsk runs , reports phase
>>>> 1
>>>> - , then phase 2 .. then reports 'cannot complete' stops and
>>>> closes
>>>> QQQ how to run disk utilities .. will not run in re-boot
>>>> mode .. or directly from windows ???
>>>> is this caused by the intel -sata disk driver ??

>>> That means, you would have the SATA port in AHCI or RAID mode in
>>> the BIOS, you pressed F6 during the installation, and offered
>>> a floppy diskette with an Intel AHCI driver. So there should
>>> already be an AHCI driver present in your OS.
>>> But it also implies, if you ever need to access that disk, in
>>> an environment where the driver doesn't exist, you'd have to offer
>>> it again.
>>> The purpose of doing chkdsk when Windows boots, is to be able
>>> to grab the C: file system, before any of the files are made "busy"
>>> by opening them. The system has a registry key called BootExecute,
>>> that contains a string to run at that time. Any utility that
>>> wants to "sandwich" itself into that sequence, can modify the string.
>>> By default, the value would be "autocheck autochk *", which is a way
>>> of determining whether any partition needs a check or not.
>>> HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager
>>> BootExecute REG_MULTI_SZ autocheck autochk *
>>> http://www.infocellar.com/winxp/chkdsk-and-autochk.htm
>>> Now, if some piece of software got to run, before autocheck,
>>> then perhaps that is why it is failing.
>>> In terms of repairing a problem like this, I've copied all the
>>> files off a file system, reformatted the partition, and copied
>>> the files back, and that seemed to solve an inability to complete
>>> chkdsk. Doing that for C: is more difficult, because you'll
>>> need to use the Recovery Console and use fixboot to put the
>>> partition boot sector back on the partition, after the format
>>> and copy step. If you just moved all the files off the partition,
>>> then moved them back, maybe the problem would correct itself. At
>>> the time I did mine, I figured formatting the partition was
>>> the way to go.
>>> Some more attempts here, to fix "Cannot open volume for direct access".
>>> There are a few ideas in here worth trying.
>>> http://forum.sysinternals.com/topic3724.html
>>> "I uninstalled Spyware Doctor 3.5 and CHKDSK started to run properly."
>>> HTH,
>>> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>>> - Show quoted text -

>> Paul ...
>>
>> That means, you would have the SATA port in AHCI or RAID mode in
>> the BIOS, you pressed F6 during the installation, and offered
>> a floppy diskette with an Intel AHCI driver. So there should
>> already be an AHCI driver present in your OS.
>>
>> Q what should I be seeing in the device manager ?
>>
>> When I access the Device manger , > Disc drives > sata wdc
>>
>> click on drive
>>
>> Driver > Microsoft 01/07/2001 5.1.2535.0
>>
>> Is this right ..or should this actually show the intel driver ?
>>
>> IDE /ATA /TATPI
>>
>> This has > Intel 03/03/2010 9.6.0.1014
>>
>> Is it possible the sata driver is NOT installed correctly ,as the
>> disk driver is showing 'microsoft 2001' ??
>>
>> The motherboard bios is set to AHCI
>>
>> Tnx - G ..- Hide quoted text -


> Just ran this tool >>>
>
>> http://www.intel.com/support/detect.htm?iid=dc_spotlight_home1
>> (Run that to find the latest versions of Intel drivers for your system.)
>
> This tool did -NOT- find any intel Disk driver listed in the
> pc
>
> is this looking like the install process was botched and I am
> running some kind
> of miss match ??
>
> Tnx- G.
>

Think about it this way. If the driver was the least bit suspect, the
computer wouldn't even manage to boot.

The driver works at a low level, like "seek to 124785" or "write 256KB
to 324839". It's a mechanical thing, with the file system abstraction
running on top of it.

One of the things AHCI would be doing, is issuing commands and keeping
track of the commands that get done. AHCI allows commands to be completed
out of sequence, at the discretion of the controller on the disk drive.
If the controller sees a more efficient sequence to improve head movement,
then that is the order the commands get completed. AHCI only really begins
to work, when the "queue" starts to build. Such a situation would be
common on a server, but not so common on a desktop. On a desktop, there
would be a relatively light load.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahci

AHCI = hot-plugging and native command queuing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Command_Queuing

Most people are installing AHCI on their desktops, so that they get the
"Hot Plug" support that is bundled with the feature. If they knew what
the impact was on performance, they might not be selecting AHCI at all
on the desktop. It's the "Hot Plug" of SATA devices that people are looking
for. Or in the case of some SATA controllers, using AHCI from the day of
installation, means an easy transition to RAID later if needed. Intel
allows migration from single disk AHCI, to multi-disk RAID, without
reformatting, and it may even be done while the OS is running (run time
migration or morphing, depending on which term you like).

*******

On WinXP, there is no support for AHCI built in. On later OSes, the
OS has a file like msahci.sys for that purpose.

If I grab one of the driver files I have on disk here, at random,
this is what I see. This is enough of a driver, to install WinXP
on an AHCI or a RAID disk controller port on an Intel Southbridge.
Which INF file is selected, is determined by the VEN and DEV
(the BIOS puts the chip in a mode, and the VEN and DEV codes help
communicate that mode to the OS and hardware wizard).

Directory of C:\Downloads\RAIDAHCI\Driver\32Bit

08/05/2009 04:52 PM <DIR> .
08/05/2009 04:52 PM <DIR> ..
04/18/2008 10:44 AM 11,509 iaAHCI.cat
04/16/2008 12:53 AM 8,794 iaAHCI.inf
04/18/2008 10:23 AM 11,215 iaStor.cat
04/16/2008 12:53 AM 8,114 iaStor.inf
04/16/2008 01:53 AM 312,344 IaStor.sys
07/26/2006 07:09 PM 11,321 license.txt
04/16/2008 12:53 AM 4,573 TXTSETUP.OEM

If I look in iaAHCI.inf , I see this:

[CopyFullPort]
iaStor.sys

The driver really has only one file in it. The OS will contribute
other files as well (things like atapi.sys). If you look in Device Manager,
and list the drivers for that controller, I'd expect to see iaStor.sys plus
a couple other files in the list.

(If I could have found a picture of the appropriate Device Manager
entry, I would have done that by now. This is the best I can do
here, without attempting to do an actual install.)

*******

One thing to keep in mind, is it is one thing to have the driver
installed, but quite another to have the disk connected to the appropriate
connector on the motherboard. Some motherboards have as many as three
SATA chips on them, and if a user is not careful, they've been running
the whole time, using an entirely different disk controller and driver.

In other words, *check your cabling* , and make sure you're actually
on an Intel port and not some other one.

Paul
From: Graham on 10 Aug 2010 16:41
On Aug 7, 4:27 pm, Paul <nos...(a)needed.com> wrote:
> Graham wrote:
> > On Aug 7, 2:33 pm, Graham <g0...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Aug 5, 11:48 am, Paul <nos...(a)needed.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Graham wrote:
> >>>> Running  winxp-pro , sata hard drives with  intel ahci
> >>>> Ok   So  go to disk  properties ....... error  checking .. select
> >>>> auto  fix ... error  message  ' needs  to  run at re-start..
> >>>> re-boot   and chkdsk  reports   ntfs file system, cannot access
> >>>> volume , fails to  run and  boots into windows
> >>>> Try with  window's running ...
> >>>> by  -not- checking the  2 tic  boxes ..  chdsk runs  , reports  phase
> >>>> 1
> >>>> -  , then  phase 2 ..   then  reports  'cannot complete'  stops and
> >>>> closes
> >>>> QQQ  how to  run disk  utilities .. will  not  run in  re-boot
> >>>> mode  .. or  directly  from  windows ???
> >>>> is this caused by the  intel -sata  disk driver ??
> >>> That means, you would have the SATA port in AHCI or RAID mode in
> >>> the BIOS, you pressed F6 during the installation, and offered
> >>> a floppy diskette with an Intel AHCI driver. So there should
> >>> already be an AHCI driver present in your OS.
> >>> But it also implies, if you ever need to access that disk, in
> >>> an environment where the driver doesn't exist, you'd have to offer
> >>> it again.
> >>> The purpose of doing chkdsk when Windows boots, is to be able
> >>> to grab the C: file system, before any of the files are made "busy"
> >>> by opening them. The system has a registry key called BootExecute,
> >>> that contains a string to run at that time. Any utility that
> >>> wants to "sandwich" itself into that sequence, can modify the string.
> >>> By default, the value would be "autocheck autochk *", which is a way
> >>> of determining whether any partition needs a check or not.
> >>> HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager
> >>>     BootExecute  REG_MULTI_SZ      autocheck autochk *
> >>>http://www.infocellar.com/winxp/chkdsk-and-autochk.htm
> >>> Now, if some piece of software got to run, before autocheck,
> >>> then perhaps that is why it is failing.
> >>> In terms of repairing a problem like this, I've copied all the
> >>> files off a file system, reformatted the partition, and copied
> >>> the files back, and that seemed to solve an inability to complete
> >>> chkdsk. Doing that for C: is more difficult, because you'll
> >>> need to use the Recovery Console and use fixboot to put the
> >>> partition boot sector back on the partition, after the format
> >>> and copy step. If you just moved all the files off the partition,
> >>> then moved them back, maybe the problem would correct itself. At
> >>> the time I did mine, I figured formatting the partition was
> >>> the way to go.
> >>> Some more attempts here, to fix "Cannot open volume for direct access".
> >>> There are a few ideas in here worth trying.
> >>>http://forum.sysinternals.com/topic3724.html
> >>>     "I uninstalled Spyware Doctor 3.5 and CHKDSK started to run properly."
> >>> HTH,
> >>>     Paul- Hide quoted text -
> >>> - Show quoted text -
> >> Paul ...
>
> >> That means, you would have the SATA port in AHCI or RAID mode in
> >> the BIOS, you pressed F6 during the installation, and offered
> >> a floppy diskette with an Intel AHCI driver. So there should
> >> already be an AHCI driver present in your OS.
>
> >> Q what  should I be seeing in the  device manager ?
>
> >> When I access the  Device manger , > Disc drives > sata wdc
>
> >> click on drive
>
> >> Driver > Microsoft  01/07/2001 5.1.2535.0
>
> >> Is this  right  ..or should this  actually  show  the  intel  driver ?
>
> >> IDE /ATA /TATPI
>
> >> This   has > Intel  03/03/2010  9.6.0.1014
>
> >> Is it possible the  sata  driver is  NOT  installed correctly ,as the
> >> disk  driver is showing   'microsoft 2001' ??
>
> >> The  motherboard  bios  is  set to AHCI
>
> >> Tnx - G ..- Hide quoted text -
> > Just  ran this  tool  >>>
>
> >>http://www.intel.com/support/detect.htm?iid=dc_spotlight_home1
> >>   (Run that to find the latest versions of Intel drivers for your system.)
>
> > This  tool  did -NOT- find  any  intel   Disk driver  listed in the
> > pc
>
> > is this looking like the  install  process  was botched and I am
> > running  some  kind
> > of  miss  match  ??
>
> > Tnx- G.
>
> Think about it this way. If the driver was the least bit suspect, the
> computer wouldn't even manage to boot.
>
> The driver works at a low level, like "seek to 124785" or "write 256KB
> to 324839". It's a mechanical thing, with the file system abstraction
> running on top of it.
>
> One of the things AHCI would be doing, is issuing commands and keeping
> track of the commands that get done. AHCI allows commands to be completed
> out of sequence, at the discretion of the controller on the disk drive.
> If the controller sees a more efficient sequence to improve head movement,
> then that is the order the commands get completed. AHCI only really begins
> to work, when the "queue" starts to build. Such a situation would be
> common on a server, but not so common on a desktop. On a desktop, there
> would be a relatively light load.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahci
>
>     AHCI = hot-plugging and native command queuing
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Command_Queuing
>
> Most people are installing AHCI on their desktops, so that they get the
> "Hot Plug" support that is bundled with the feature. If they knew what
> the impact was on performance, they might not be selecting AHCI at all
> on the desktop. It's the "Hot Plug" of SATA devices that people are looking
> for. Or in the case of some SATA controllers, using AHCI from the day of
> installation, means an easy transition to RAID later if needed. Intel
> allows migration from single disk AHCI, to multi-disk RAID, without
> reformatting, and it may even be done while the OS is running (run time
> migration or morphing, depending on which term you like).
>
> *******
>
> On WinXP, there is no support for AHCI built in. On later OSes, the
> OS has a file like msahci.sys for that purpose.
>
> If I grab one of the driver files I have on disk here, at random,
> this is what I see. This is enough of a driver, to install WinXP
> on an AHCI or a RAID disk controller port on an Intel Southbridge.
> Which INF file is selected, is determined by the VEN and DEV
> (the BIOS puts the chip in a mode, and the VEN and DEV codes help
> communicate that mode to the OS and hardware wizard).
>
> Directory of C:\Downloads\RAIDAHCI\Driver\32Bit
>
> 08/05/2009  04:52 PM    <DIR>          .
> 08/05/2009  04:52 PM    <DIR>          ..
> 04/18/2008  10:44 AM            11,509 iaAHCI.cat
> 04/16/2008  12:53 AM             8,794 iaAHCI.inf
> 04/18/2008  10:23 AM            11,215 iaStor.cat
> 04/16/2008  12:53 AM             8,114 iaStor.inf
> 04/16/2008  01:53 AM           312,344 IaStor.sys
> 07/26/2006  07:09 PM            11,321 license.txt
> 04/16/2008  12:53 AM             4,573 TXTSETUP.OEM
>
> If I look in iaAHCI.inf , I see this:
>
>    [CopyFullPort]
>    iaStor.sys
>
> The driver really has only one file in it. The OS will contribute
> other files as well (things like atapi.sys). If you look in Device Manager,
> and list the drivers for that controller, I'd expect to see iaStor.sys plus
> a couple other files in the list.
>
> (If I could have found a picture of the appropriate Device Manager
> entry, I would have done that by now. This is the best I can do
> here, without attempting to do an actual install.)
>
> *******
>
> One thing to keep in mind, is it is one thing to have the driver
> installed, but quite another to have the disk connected to the appropriate
> connector on the motherboard. Some motherboards have as many as three
> SATA chips on them, and if a user is not careful, they've been running
> the whole time, using an entirely different disk controller and driver.
>
> In other words, *check your cabling* , and make sure you're actually
> on an Intel port and not some other one.
>
>     Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

All is plugged into the right ports and ran 100% before messing
about with the sata drivers & windows ..
PC will -not- boot into safe mode .........what fun ......
Still getting blue screen - irq-not-equal-to-or-less .. for no
apparant reason
all the mal/virus etc scans are showing fine
cannot access disk tools

G..
From: Paul on 11 Aug 2010 05:02
Graham wrote:
> On Aug 7, 4:27 pm, Paul <nos...(a)needed.com> wrote:
>> Graham wrote:
>>> On Aug 7, 2:33 pm, Graham <g0...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Aug 5, 11:48 am, Paul <nos...(a)needed.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graham wrote:
>>>>>> Running winxp-pro , sata hard drives with intel ahci
>>>>>> Ok So go to disk properties ....... error checking .. select
>>>>>> auto fix ... error message ' needs to run at re-start.
>>>>>> re-boot and chkdsk reports ntfs file system, cannot access
>>>>>> volume , fails to run and boots into windows
>>>>>> Try with window's running ...
>>>>>> by -not- checking the 2 tic boxes .. chdsk runs , reports phase
>>>>>> 1
>>>>>> - , then phase 2 .. then reports 'cannot complete' stops and
>>>>>> closes
>>>>>> QQQ how to run disk utilities .. will not run in re-boot
>>>>>> mode .. or directly from windows ???
>>>>>> is this caused by the intel -sata disk driver ??

>>>> Q what should I be seeing in the device manager ?
>>>> When I access the Device manger , > Disc drives > sata wdc
>>>> click on drive
>>>> Driver > Microsoft 01/07/2001 5.1.2535.0
>>>> Is this right ..or should this actually show the intel driver ?
>>>> IDE /ATA /TATPI
>>>> This has > Intel 03/03/2010 9.6.0.1014
>>>> Is it possible the sata driver is NOT installed correctly ,as the
>>>> disk driver is showing 'microsoft 2001' ??
>>>> The motherboard bios is set to AHCI
>>>> Tnx - G ..- Hide quoted text -
>>> Just ran this tool >>>
>>>> http://www.intel.com/support/detect.htm?iid=dc_spotlight_home1
>>>> (Run that to find the latest versions of Intel drivers for your system.)
>>> This tool did -NOT- find any intel Disk driver listed in the
>>> pc
>>> is this looking like the install process was botched and I am
>>> running some kind
>>> of miss match ??
>>> Tnx- G.

>
> All is plugged into the right ports and ran 100% before messing
> about with the sata drivers & windows ..
> PC will -not- boot into safe mode .........what fun ......
> Still getting blue screen - irq-not-equal-to-or-less .. for no
> apparant reason
> all the mal/virus etc scans are showing fine
> cannot access disk tools
>
> G..

So what we know at this point.

1) CHKDSK won't complete, and bombs out in Phase3. So there is some kind
of problem.

2) You've been fooling with the drivers. On re-reading your description of
Device Manager, it sounds like you were looking at the disk drive alright.
But the other part of the driver story, is the "controller" in the
"IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers" section. That is where I was predicting
you'd see iastor.sys and atapi.sys. Mine is currently in a non-AHCI
mode, so won't read quite the same as yours. The disk has drivers
and the controller has drivers.

3) Now you're in a fine mess. I can't tell from your irq-not-equal-to-or-less,
whether that is a "0A" or a "D1" on this page.

http://aumha.org/a/stop.htm

4) I was thinking, how nice it would be, if you could use a System Restore
point, and go back a few days, to a point where the drivers weren't
messed up. System Restore runs in "normal" mode (and is reversible there),
or it runs in Safe Mode with Command Prompt (if you use it there, I
think you're stuck with the results and you can't undo it).

There is a third option, which I've been experimenting with, but it
isn't working for me. I went to this page, and I've tried the Vista
and the 32 bit Windows 7 recovery discs.

http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/windows-vista-recovery-disc-download/

I created a virtual machine in VirtualPC 2007 for testing. Booted
the Vista 32 bit ISO9660 (CD image) in VirtualPC, and it can't
find the WinXP install. I thought it was supposed to see OSes besides
Vista and Windows 7, but that doesn't seem to be working for me.
At least the command prompt works, which is worth something.

In there, I tried opening a command prompt, then doing

rstrui /OFFLINE:C:\WINDOWS

and it doesn't seem to be able to find restore points. But the
restore points are there, because I checked them. And I tried
FAT32 and NTFS for the partition file system, and that didn't
make any difference either. I'm hoping the problem is
related to how I got a copy of WinXP into the virtual
environment, but I can't be sure of that. And there are
no informative error messages, to help debug what happened.

5) It would be nice to know, what drivers you tried to install, and
how many times you've changed the BIOS setting for the disk
controller (IDE, AHCI, RAID). Under normal circumstances, you
can't screw that up, because Intel put a nice "Catch22" in there.
If you use the wrong driver, the Plug and Play numbers don't
match (AHCI driver won't install if BIOS is set to IDE).
And if you change the BIOS setting to a different value, the
OS will no longer boot, preventing you from installing a
different driver. There is a recipe to get around this, but
you won't discover it by just popping one driver disc after
another into the computer.

Therefore, I can't account for how you've lost control of the
computer.

If you had Safe Mode with Command Prompt, you could have tried
some recipe based on "rstrui" and used a restore point from
several days ago, to go back to a point in time where the
drivers were valid.

HTH,
Paul
From: Paul on 11 Aug 2010 18:57
Paul wrote:

>
> 4) I was thinking, how nice it would be, if you could use a System Restore
> point, and go back a few days, to a point where the drivers weren't
> messed up. System Restore runs in "normal" mode (and is reversible there),
> or it runs in Safe Mode with Command Prompt (if you use it there, I
> think you're stuck with the results and you can't undo it).
>
> There is a third option, which I've been experimenting with, but it
> isn't working for me. I went to this page, and I've tried the Vista
> and the 32 bit Windows 7 recovery discs.
>
> http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/windows-vista-recovery-disc-download/
>

Still no luck. I haven't been able to get a Vista or Windows 7 recovery
disk, to run System Restore for me, either using the GUI button, or
using the command prompt. I'm thinking it is designed for the
specific OSes. I even tried executing the rstrui.exe from the WinXP
partition, while using the command prompt, and that just silently
dies without any messages being shown.

So far, all I've got out of those CDs, is a working command prompt
(DOS-like) window, and access to the C: partition.

Paul
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