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From: Hector Santos on 11 Feb 2010 20:23
Ant wrote:

> "Jonathan de Boyne Pollard" wrote:
>
>> Ant wrote:
>>> It's also good netiquette to give attributions to what you quote and
>>> not post in html.
>> There's a reason that you've been directed to news.newusers.questions.
>
> It's also impolite to direct followups elsewhere without mentioning it
> in the body of your message.


What he failed to understand is that not every NNTP Server and host
are under the same universe of newsgroups networks or usenet
specifically, that the USER might not be using a server with usenet
access but might be strictly interested in the Microsoft private
groups only. So when you do a cross post and/or followup response to
different groups, he is inadvertently breaking the ability for many to
respond. He is presuming everyone is under the same network. Common
mistake by many as since by some operators of our Wildcat! NNTP
Server, which were the same MISTAKE by our old operators of Wildcat!
Fidonet Frontend and ECHO mail processing as well.

--
HLS
From: Hector Santos on 11 Feb 2010 21:06
Ant wrote:

> "Jonathan de Boyne Pollard" wrote:
>
>> HTML quoting in many newsreaders actually provides more accurate
>> attributions than other forms, including as it does an exact URI for
>> the message as a cite attribute.
>
> Except that it's not displayed by OE and is just a message ID. That's
> not a good attribution. If I want the MID it's in the references, and
> saying "get a proper news reader" won't make it a better cite.
>
> In any case, the post to which I responded was text/plain not html
> and had no attribution.


Look at how this thread is viewed with Jonathan's posted input being
the only HTML ODD-BALL!

http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/list/en-us/default.aspx?dg=microsoft.public.win32.programmer.kernel&tid=7a8f2e3e-ffe2-47ec-8a05-d31a4b52b7cd&cat=en_us_57462944-f41e-4c30-926d-50743657f53b&lang=en&cr=us&sloc=&p=1

The problem is that Jonathan's mail is not supporting MIME multi-part
alternative types, just a PURE HTML dump which is stupid engineering
assumption that ALL DEVICES will render HTML!!



--
HLS
From: Jonathan de Boyne Pollard on 12 Feb 2010 06:45
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<title></title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<blockquote cite="mid:uZEbRI4qKHA.5936(a)TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl" type="cite">
<p>He is presuming everyone is under the same network.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I'm presuming that your Usenet access incorporates the Big 8.&nbsp;
That's far from being the unfair assumption that you are attemping to
falsely portray it as, and if your Usenet access doesn't include the
Big 8, that's most definitely <em>your</em> problem, not anyone
else's.&nbsp; Fix your problem, and don't blame others for it.&nbsp; It's not
even as if you've never posted to a Big 8 newsgroup in your life.&nbsp; You
and we all know that you have.&nbsp; So it's not even an <em>unreasonable</em>
presumption.&nbsp; You're a vendor of an NNTP software, for goodness'
sakes.&nbsp; How do you think that it looks to your customers when they put
"Hector Santos", "Santronics", and "Wildcat" into their favourite
search engines and come across newsgroup threads where you are
erroneously stating that cross-posting wastes bandwidth and are
repeatedly manually overriding followups to move threads back into the <code>microsoft.*</code>
hierarchy because you haven't the nous to post to a Big 8 newsgroup (in
the <code>news.*</code> hierarchy, of all places)?&nbsp; They're going to
wonder at an NNTP software vendor who is seemingly incapable of even
organizing xyr own access to Usenet.<br>
</p>
</body>
</html>
From: Jonathan de Boyne Pollard on 12 Feb 2010 06:45
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<title></title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<blockquote cite="mid:OaqY%23P3qKHA.5736(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<p wrap="">You're making the very same novice error addressed in
point #12 of the the <a
href="http://faqs.org./faqs/usenet/what-is/part1/">"What is Usenet?"
FAQ document</a> for that newsgroup.<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p wrap="">That talks about character sets, not markup language.<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>No, it talks about parochialism, and the myth that there's some
common 7-bit message format that Usenet is restricted to &#8212;&nbsp; the myth
that there even <em>is</em> such a thing as plain text.&nbsp; (<a
href="http://joelonsoftware.com/articles/Unicode.html">There is</a> <a
href="http://weblog.delacour.net./archives/2003/10/there_aint_no_such_thing_as_plain_text.php">no
such</a> <a href="http://codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000178.html">thing
as</a> <a href="http://diveintopython3.org./strings.html">plain text</a>.)&nbsp;
If you don't understand this, then you haven't read it properly, and
haven't fully appreciated the issues that it involves.&nbsp; Go and learn
about the reasons that led to the very invention of MIME in the first
place.&nbsp; Usenet isn't as you think it to be, never was as you think it
to be, and has a readership where your idea of how the world should
work will utterly fail in practice and indeed <em>did</em> fail in
practice until people invented the very things that you decry (Those
who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, badly.); and a
Usenet FAQ document for novices explaining this has existed for almost
a quarter of a century.</p>
<blockquote cite="mid:OaqY%23P3qKHA.5736(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<p wrap=""> And when you've
done that you might be ready to progress to the more complex knowledge
that HTML quoting in many newsreaders actually provides <em>more
accurate</em> attributions than other forms, including as it does an
exact <a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2392">URI for the message</a>
as a <code>cite</code> attribute.For advanced-level knowledge, read
the Usefor discussions of this subject, by the likes of <span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: medium;">Russ
Allbery
and others, in the late 1990s.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p wrap="">Except that it's not displayed by OE and is just a message
ID. That's not a good attribution. If I want the MID it's in the
references, and saying "get a proper news reader" won't make it a
better cite.<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>The <code>References:</code> header <em>is</em> the cite.&nbsp; It
always has been, since at least 1983 (the date of RFC 850).&nbsp; As I said,
for advanced-level knowledge, read
the Usefor discussions of this subject, by the likes of <span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: medium;">Russ
Allbery
and others, in the late 1990s.&nbsp; Learn from what you are pointed to, and
from history.<br>
</span></p>
<p><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: medium;"></span></p>
<blockquote cite="mid:OaqY%23P3qKHA.5736(a)TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl"
type="cite">
<p wrap="">In any case, the post to which I responded was text/plain
not html [...]<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Indeed.&nbsp; That made your original reply look rather silly.&nbsp; Sadly to
say, you provided yet another instance of someone repeating this canard
who is undermined by the very post that they use to state it.</p>
</body>
</html>
From: Hector Santos on 12 Feb 2010 08:12
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:

>> >
>> > He is presuming everyone is under the same network.
>> >
>> I'm presuming that your Usenet access incorporates the Big 8. That's far from
>> being the unfair assumption that you are attemping to falsely portray it as, and
>> if your Usenet access doesn't include the Big 8, that's most definitely /your/
>> problem, not anyone else's. Fix your problem, and don't blame others for it.
>> It's not even as if you've never posted to a Big 8 newsgroup in your life. You
>> and we all know that you have. So it's not even an /unreasonable/ presumption.
>> You're a vendor of an NNTP software, for goodness' sakes. How do you think that
>> it looks to your customers when they put "Hector Santos", "Santronics", and
>> "Wildcat" into their favourite search engines and come across newsgroup threads
>> where you are erroneously stating that cross-posting wastes bandwidth and are
>> repeatedly manually overriding followups to move threads back into the
>> |microsoft.*| hierarchy because you haven't the nous to post to a Big 8
>> newsgroup (in the |news.*| hierarchy, of all places)? They're going to wonder
>> at an NNTP software vendor who is seemingly incapable of even organizing xyr own
>> access to Usenet.

No doubt, most people won't need to do a search because they already
agree that you are nuts!!

You really don't understand RFC 3522 (formerly RFC 2822), all the MIME
related document and basically the heterogeneous world that exist in
the Internet mail system.

Get it in your head, if you post in PURE HTML only, which by the way
is still a TABOO (frown upon) to use in usenet, there will be MANY
systems and devices that will not be able to read and render your mail.

If you want maximum exposure, then you should utilize the long
invented standard technology that is supported your TBIRD mail reader
to serve this very purpose. Why are you being such so stubborn about
this?

In all honestly I tried to save you the embarrassment by not posting
into other newsgroup and keeping in the single group where it started.
Keep it isolated and hopefully die quickly once you realize the error
of your way. But I will do it now if you think that will serve your
purpose.

--
HLS
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