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From: brent on 3 Jan 2010 15:35 On Jan 3, 3:29 pm, "invalid" <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: > "brent" <buleg...(a)columbus.rr.com> wrote in message > > news:348ec1e2-dd29-41b3-b771-18366ac0790c(a)h9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com... > > > I think you err in wanting everything to come together in one sitting > > or reading. > > I made no statement to that effect, nor did I express such a wish. Fair 'nuff
From: Chris Bore on 4 Jan 2010 10:39 On Jan 3, 5:31 pm, Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> wrote: > Chris Bore wrote: > > On Jan 3, 2:27 am, Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> wrote: > >> Chris Bore wrote: > >>> On Dec 31 2009, 5:49 pm, Randy Yates <ya...(a)ieee.org> wrote: > >>>> Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> writes: > >>>>> Randy Yates wrote: > >>>>>> Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> writes: > >>>>>>> [...] > >>>>>>> Relying on a large brittle flange extending out from a stress raiser > >>>>>>> (abrupt change in section) is an engineering sin you wouldn't commit. > >>>>>> So when you asked the question, "Why are manhole covers round?", you > >>>>>> expected the answer to be based on such knowledge of materials? > >>>>> The expected answer is "So they don't fall through." Knowledge of > >>>>> materials is needed only to deal with nitpicking. :-) > >>>>> This was dealt with here before. > >>>> I don't think it has yet been dealt with properly until now. See my > >>>> recent (like, 2 minutes ago) post to Muzaffer Kal. > >>>> -- > >>>> Randy Yates % "She has an IQ of 1001, she has a jumpsuit > >>>> Digital Signal Labs % on, and she's also a telephone." > >>>> mailto://ya...(a)ieee.org %http://www.digitalsignallabs.com% 'Yours Truly, 2095', *Time*, ELO > >>> Manhole covers here (Surrey, England) are rectangular. > >> How frequently do they need to be fished out of the sewer? > > >> Jerry > >> -- > >> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get..- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > They do get stolen, but I never heard of one going down the sewer. > > Maybe the sewer operatives are PhDs... > > Is it possible that when an open hole is seen and the assumption is that > the cover was stolen, the cover fell in instead? Do you know about the > "stolen" Revolutionary War canon on the Princeton University campus? > > Jerry > > There is an old canon on the campus said to be a relic of the Battle of > Monmouth, buried muzzle down, with about a foot and a half projecting > above ground. The weight is estimated to be about a ton. One morning, > there was a large hole in the ground with dirt piled along side it and > no canon in sight. Campus. municipal, and state police combed the campus > looking for clues, wheel tracks, anything. Nothing. Two days later, a > notice appeared on a bulletin board neat campus police office "LOOK > UNDER THE DIRT". The canon had not been moved, merely buried. > -- > Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. > ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - It would appear that round manhole covers are typical in the USA though not so much in England and Europe. I could find no round ones on a recent tour of the local area that I undertook with the specific intention to research the typical manhole cover shape. Most are rectangles, some are square, some are triangular, but I could not find any round ones. The "can't fall in the hole" argument does not apply here, as most square covers are in fact in two pieces - both triangles. I can only assume that British manhole users are specially trained not to drop the covers down the hole. I have lodged an information request with Surrey County Council to ask how many, if any, manhole covers do fall down the hole. Nobody I know has ever heard of a manhole cover falling fown its hole. The thefts are verified by the cover not being down or near the hole. There is a British Standard for manhole covers (and a European one, but we don't mention that..). I would guess that Surrey manhole covers are rectangular because their design aims to fit in with rectangular paving. By the way, since the USA evidently leads in manhole cover design to avoid the cover falling down the hole, can I ask why US manholes seem to be in the middle of busy roads (ours are usually at the verge)? I would be interested to know how many US manhole users are crushed by passing traffic? Chris ======================== Chris Bore BORES Signal Processing www.bores.com
From: Jerry Avins on 4 Jan 2010 10:59 Chris Bore wrote: > On Jan 3, 5:31 pm, Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> wrote: >> Chris Bore wrote: >>> On Jan 3, 2:27 am, Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> wrote: >>>> Chris Bore wrote: >>>>> On Dec 31 2009, 5:49 pm, Randy Yates <ya...(a)ieee.org> wrote: >>>>>> Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> writes: >>>>>>> Randy Yates wrote: >>>>>>>> Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> writes: >>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>> Relying on a large brittle flange extending out from a stress raiser >>>>>>>>> (abrupt change in section) is an engineering sin you wouldn't commit. >>>>>>>> So when you asked the question, "Why are manhole covers round?", you >>>>>>>> expected the answer to be based on such knowledge of materials? >>>>>>> The expected answer is "So they don't fall through." Knowledge of >>>>>>> materials is needed only to deal with nitpicking. :-) >>>>>>> This was dealt with here before. >>>>>> I don't think it has yet been dealt with properly until now. See my >>>>>> recent (like, 2 minutes ago) post to Muzaffer Kal. >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Randy Yates % "She has an IQ of 1001, she has a jumpsuit >>>>>> Digital Signal Labs % on, and she's also a telephone." >>>>>> mailto://ya...(a)ieee.org %http://www.digitalsignallabs.com% 'Yours Truly, 2095', *Time*, ELO >>>>> Manhole covers here (Surrey, England) are rectangular. >>>> How frequently do they need to be fished out of the sewer? >>>> Jerry >>>> -- >>>> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> They do get stolen, but I never heard of one going down the sewer. >>> Maybe the sewer operatives are PhDs... >> Is it possible that when an open hole is seen and the assumption is that >> the cover was stolen, the cover fell in instead? Do you know about the >> "stolen" Revolutionary War canon on the Princeton University campus? >> >> Jerry >> >> There is an old canon on the campus said to be a relic of the Battle of >> Monmouth, buried muzzle down, with about a foot and a half projecting >> above ground. The weight is estimated to be about a ton. One morning, >> there was a large hole in the ground with dirt piled along side it and >> no canon in sight. Campus. municipal, and state police combed the campus >> looking for clues, wheel tracks, anything. Nothing. Two days later, a >> notice appeared on a bulletin board neat campus police office "LOOK >> UNDER THE DIRT". The canon had not been moved, merely buried. >> -- >> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. >> �����������������������������������������������������������������������- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > It would appear that round manhole covers are typical in the USA > though not so much in England and Europe. I could find no round ones > on a recent tour of the local area that I undertook with the specific > intention to research the typical manhole cover shape. Most are > rectangles, some are square, some are triangular, but I could not find > any round ones. The "can't fall in the hole" argument does not apply > here, as most square covers are in fact in two pieces - both > triangles. I can only assume that British manhole users are specially > trained not to drop the covers down the hole. > > I have lodged an information request with Surrey County Council to ask > how many, if any, manhole covers do fall down the hole. Nobody I know > has ever heard of a manhole cover falling fown its hole. The thefts > are verified by the cover not being down or near the hole. > > There is a British Standard for manhole covers (and a European one, > but we don't mention that..). > > I would guess that Surrey manhole covers are rectangular because their > design aims to fit in with rectangular paving. > > By the way, since the USA evidently leads in manhole cover design to > avoid the cover falling down the hole, can I ask why US manholes seem > to be in the middle of busy roads (ours are usually at the verge)? I > would be interested to know how many US manhole users are crushed by > passing traffic? In the US, manholes are often in the center of the roadway because it is easier to dig there using heavy machinery. Sanitary sewers, electrical and telephone conduit channels and in a few cities (New York, e.g.) live steam are typical. Rainwater catchment basins are at the curb and generally have rectangular access. (I once removed a cover and climbed down the cast-in rungs to retrieve the car keys that I had dropped in.) Underground transformer vaults also usually have rectangular openings. In New York (maybe elsewhere) some sanitary manholes have an outer cover flush with the pavement and another, slightly smaller, just below it. I don't know why. I do know that round covers are cavalierly handled in ways that wouldn't work with any other shape. A decided disadvantage of round covers in the middle of the road is after one has been removed and then replaced, the center line painted on it is usually skewed. I don't know of a theft problem. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. �����������������������������������������������������������������������
From: Gordon Sande on 4 Jan 2010 11:12 On 2010-01-04 11:39:20 -0400, Chris Bore <chris.bore(a)gmail.com> said: > On Jan 3, 5:31�pm, Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> wrote: >> Chris Bore wrote: >>> On Jan 3, 2:27 am, Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> wrote: >>>> Chris Bore wrote: >>>>> On Dec 31 2009, 5:49 pm, Randy Yates <ya...(a)ieee.org> wrote: >>>>>> Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> writes: >>>>>>> Randy Yates wrote: >>>>>>>> Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> writes: >>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>> Relying on a large brittle flange extending out from a stress rai > ser >>>>>>>>> (abrupt change in section) is an engineering sin you wouldn't com > mit. >>>>>>>> So when you asked the question, "Why are manhole covers round?", y > ou >>>>>>>> expected the answer to be based on such knowledge of materials? >>>>>>> The expected answer is "So they don't fall through." Knowledge of >>>>>>> materials is needed only to deal with nitpicking. :-) >>>>>>> This was dealt with here before. >>>>>> I don't think it has yet been dealt with properly until now. See my >>>>>> recent (like, 2 minutes ago) post to Muzaffer Kal. >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Randy Yates � � � � � � � � � � �% "She has an > IQ of 1001, she has a jumpsuit >>>>>> Digital Signal Labs � � � � � � �% � � � � � > �on, and she's also a telephone." >>>>>> mailto://ya...(a)ieee.org � � � � �%http://www.digitalsignal > labs.com%� � � 'Yours Truly, 2095', *Time*, ELO � >>>>> Manhole covers here (Surrey, England) are rectangular. >>>> How frequently do they need to be fished out of the sewer? >> >>>> Jerry >>>> -- >>>> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get > .- Hide quoted text - >> >>>> - Show quoted text - >> >>> They do get stolen, but I never heard of one going down the sewer. >>> Maybe the sewer operatives are PhDs... >> >> Is it possible that when an open hole is seen and the assumption is that >> the cover was stolen, the cover fell in instead? Do you know about the >> "stolen" Revolutionary War canon on the Princeton University campus? >> >> Jerry >> >> There is an old canon on the campus said to be a relic of the Battle of >> Monmouth, buried muzzle down, with about a foot and a half projecting >> above ground. The weight is estimated to be about a ton. One morning, >> there was a large hole in the ground with dirt piled along side it and >> no canon in sight. Campus. municipal, and state police combed the campus >> looking for clues, wheel tracks, anything. Nothing. Two days later, a >> notice appeared on a bulletin board neat campus police office "LOOK >> UNDER THE DIRT". The canon had not been moved, merely buried. >> -- >> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. >> ������������������������ > ������������������������� > ����������������������- Hide qu > oted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > It would appear that round manhole covers are typical in the USA > though not so much in England and Europe. I could find no round ones > on a recent tour of the local area that I undertook with the specific > intention to research the typical manhole cover shape. Most are > rectangles, some are square, some are triangular, but I could not find > any round ones. The "can't fall in the hole" argument does not apply > here, as most square covers are in fact in two pieces - both > triangles. I can only assume that British manhole users are specially > trained not to drop the covers down the hole. > > I have lodged an information request with Surrey County Council to ask > how many, if any, manhole covers do fall down the hole. Nobody I know > has ever heard of a manhole cover falling fown its hole. The thefts > are verified by the cover not being down or near the hole. > > There is a British Standard for manhole covers (and a European one, > but we don't mention that..). > > I would guess that Surrey manhole covers are rectangular because their > design aims to fit in with rectangular paving. > > By the way, since the USA evidently leads in manhole cover design to > avoid the cover falling down the hole, can I ask why US manholes seem > to be in the middle of busy roads (ours are usually at the verge)? I > would be interested to know how many US manhole users are crushed by > passing traffic? > > Chris > ======================= > Chris Bore > BORES Signal Processing > www.bores.com Locally (meaning within walking distance of home) the round one are for water and sewage and in the middle of the road while rectangular ones are for storm sewer draining or electircal and at the edge of the road. I had always asumed that the round ones were that way so there would not be a high stress point from the traffic while the others were to allow storm water or personel easier access. The round ones are much harder to match to the hole beneath then as the hole also requires special bricks etc etc but they are easier to make good matches as big lathes are standard insustrial gear. Now and then there will be rectangular ones in the middle of the road. My impression is they are more prone to clatter from being slightly off-flat. The not falling in is as a minor advantage but not enough to cause the middle of the road rectangles to be fixed. The not falling in is a standard trick question and I have always assumed it was more an urban legend than actual civil engineerng practice.
From: Jerry Avins on 4 Jan 2010 12:12
Gordon Sande wrote: > On 2010-01-04 11:39:20 -0400, Chris Bore <chris.bore(a)gmail.com> said: > >> On Jan 3, 5:31 pm, Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> wrote: >>> Chris Bore wrote: >>>> On Jan 3, 2:27 am, Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> wrote: >>>>> Chris Bore wrote: >>>>>> On Dec 31 2009, 5:49 pm, Randy Yates <ya...(a)ieee.org> wrote: >>>>>>> Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> writes: >>>>>>>> Randy Yates wrote: >>>>>>>>> Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> writes: >>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>>> Relying on a large brittle flange extending out from a stress rai >> ser >>>>>>>>>> (abrupt change in section) is an engineering sin you wouldn't com >> mit. >>>>>>>>> So when you asked the question, "Why are manhole covers round?", y >> ou >>>>>>>>> expected the answer to be based on such knowledge of materials? >>>>>>>> The expected answer is "So they don't fall through." Knowledge of >>>>>>>> materials is needed only to deal with nitpicking. :-) >>>>>>>> This was dealt with here before. >>>>>>> I don't think it has yet been dealt with properly until now. See my >>>>>>> recent (like, 2 minutes ago) post to Muzaffer Kal. >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Randy Yates % "She has an >> IQ of 1001, she has a jumpsuit >>>>>>> Digital Signal Labs % >> on, and she's also a telephone." >>>>>>> mailto://ya...(a)ieee.org %http://www.digitalsignal >> labs.com% 'Yours Truly, 2095', *Time*, ELO >>>>>> Manhole covers here (Surrey, England) are rectangular. >>>>> How frequently do they need to be fished out of the sewer? >>> >>>>> Jerry >>>>> -- >>>>> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get >> .- Hide quoted text - >>> >>>>> - Show quoted text - >>> >>>> They do get stolen, but I never heard of one going down the sewer. >>>> Maybe the sewer operatives are PhDs... >>> >>> Is it possible that when an open hole is seen and the assumption is that >>> the cover was stolen, the cover fell in instead? Do you know about the >>> "stolen" Revolutionary War canon on the Princeton University campus? >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> There is an old canon on the campus said to be a relic of the Battle of >>> Monmouth, buried muzzle down, with about a foot and a half projecting >>> above ground. The weight is estimated to be about a ton. One morning, >>> there was a large hole in the ground with dirt piled along side it and >>> no canon in sight. Campus. municipal, and state police combed the campus >>> looking for clues, wheel tracks, anything. Nothing. Two days later, a >>> notice appeared on a bulletin board neat campus police office "LOOK >>> UNDER THE DIRT". The canon had not been moved, merely buried. >>> -- >>> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. >>> ������������������������ >> ������������������������� >> ����������������������- Hide qu >> oted text - >>> >>> - Show quoted text - >> >> It would appear that round manhole covers are typical in the USA >> though not so much in England and Europe. I could find no round ones >> on a recent tour of the local area that I undertook with the specific >> intention to research the typical manhole cover shape. Most are >> rectangles, some are square, some are triangular, but I could not find >> any round ones. The "can't fall in the hole" argument does not apply >> here, as most square covers are in fact in two pieces - both >> triangles. I can only assume that British manhole users are specially >> trained not to drop the covers down the hole. >> >> I have lodged an information request with Surrey County Council to ask >> how many, if any, manhole covers do fall down the hole. Nobody I know >> has ever heard of a manhole cover falling fown its hole. The thefts >> are verified by the cover not being down or near the hole. >> >> There is a British Standard for manhole covers (and a European one, >> but we don't mention that..). >> >> I would guess that Surrey manhole covers are rectangular because their >> design aims to fit in with rectangular paving. >> >> By the way, since the USA evidently leads in manhole cover design to >> avoid the cover falling down the hole, can I ask why US manholes seem >> to be in the middle of busy roads (ours are usually at the verge)? I >> would be interested to know how many US manhole users are crushed by >> passing traffic? >> >> Chris >> ======================= >> Chris Bore >> BORES Signal Processing >> www.bores.com > > Locally (meaning within walking distance of home) the round one are for > water > and sewage and in the middle of the road while rectangular ones are for > storm > sewer draining or electircal and at the edge of the road. I had always > asumed that > the round ones were that way so there would not be a high stress point from > the traffic while the others were to allow storm water or personel > easier access. > The round ones are much harder to match to the hole beneath then as the > hole also > requires special bricks etc etc but they are easier to make good matches > as big > lathes are standard insustrial gear. Now and then there will be > rectangular ones > in the middle of the road. My impression is they are more prone to > clatter from > being slightly off-flat. The not falling in is as a minor advantage but > not enough > to cause the middle of the road rectangles to be fixed. > > The not falling in is a standard trick question and I have always > assumed it was > more an urban legend than actual civil engineerng practice. I have a few times in my capacity sitting on the board of a sewerage authority removed and replaced round manhole covers with only a hook and chain. I had no difficulty managing their substantial weight on my own. The time that I removed a much lighter rectangular catch-basin grate in order to retrieve my car keys, I was very lucky to have the assistance of a passing policeman when putting it back. Maybe "so they can't fall in" is too simplistic. "So one can be sure they won't fall in and can therefore manipulate them with ease and tranquility" might be more accurate. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. ����������������������������������������������������������������������� |