Does a magnetic field rotate with a magnet...the answer!
in [Physics]
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From: Benj on 1 Mar 2010 02:45 On Feb 28, 10:28 pm, Salmon Egg <Salmon...(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote: > Yes but... > > If you have a solenoid carrying current, there is only current on the > surface--the winding itself. If you stick an iron core inside the > solenoid, the whole cross section of the core gets magnetized. Somehow, > I think, posters here are imputing some magical properties to these > surface currents. I want to know what these properties are. I agree he's on the right track. And if you have a solenoid the current is clearly on the outside (well, where the wire is). So what happens if you stick an iron core in? Well, there are induced in the material atoms circulating currents that create magnetic dipoles. The dipoles have some kind of density distribution throughout the core. But if they are more or less uniform then there exists an equivalency to a larger current around the outside of the core. And indeed the iron core seems to increase the strength of the field coming out of the solenoid. I don't see anything magical about this. It's just the theory of magnetic materials. The point remains, however, that no matter where you find it, a magnetic field is always generated by currents!
From: Vince Morgan on 1 Mar 2010 03:07 "Benj" <bjacoby(a)iwaynet.net> wrote in message news:6fbd81c5-5af2-485f-bb2d-106eed57199d(a)b30g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... On Feb 28, 10:28 pm, Salmon Egg <Salmon...(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote: > Yes but... > > If you have a solenoid carrying current, there is only current on the > surface--the winding itself. If you stick an iron core inside the > solenoid, the whole cross section of the core gets magnetized. Somehow, > I think, posters here are imputing some magical properties to these > surface currents. I want to know what these properties are. [quote] I agree he's on the right track. And if you have a solenoid the current is clearly on the outside (well, where the wire is). So what happens if you stick an iron core in? Well, there are induced in the material atoms circulating currents that create magnetic dipoles. The dipoles have some kind of density distribution throughout the core. But if they are more or less uniform then there exists an equivalency to a larger current around the outside of the core. And indeed the iron core seems to increase the strength of the field coming out of the solenoid. I don't see anything magical about this. It's just the theory of magnetic materials. The point remains, however, that no matter where you find it, a magnetic field is always generated by currents! [/quote] Magnetic dipoles? Just when I was about ready to throw the notion of 'magnetism' (as an entity) out the window you bring in magetic dipoles Ben. What is a magnetic dipole if there IS only current? Could it be the lorentz force/interaction is mirrored due to the opposite(opposite side of nucleus) direction of the circulating current(electron) thereby giving what we have percieved as noth/south magnetic poles? Regards, Vince
From: Vince Morgan on 1 Mar 2010 03:18 "Vince Morgan" <vinhar(a)TAKEOUToptusnet.com.au> wrote in message news:4b8b749e$0$5591$afc38c87(a)news.optusnet.com.au... > > "Benj" <bjacoby(a)iwaynet.net> wrote in message > news:6fbd81c5-5af2-485f-bb2d-106eed57199d(a)b30g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... > On Feb 28, 10:28 pm, Salmon Egg <Salmon...(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote: > [snip] > Magnetic dipoles? > Just when I was about ready to throw the notion of 'magnetism' (as an > entity) out the window you bring in magetic dipoles Ben. > What is a magnetic dipole if there IS only current? Could it be the lorentz > force/interaction is mirrored due to the opposite(opposite side of nucleus) > direction of the circulating current(electron) thereby giving what we have > percieved as noth/south magnetic poles? > Regards, > Vince > > IDIOCY! My appologies. I'll try again. Could it be that Lorentz force, being directional, is what we have percieved as magnetic dipoles? It pushes at one end and sucks on the other, so to speak. I can see the Lorentze force dong this. And I see the accumulation of many Lorentz force vectors making one larger, errrr, magnetic field. I mean, if there is no unique entity as a 'magnetic filed' then any magnetic dipole (All 'magnetic fields' are an aggragate of 'magnetic dipoles' aren't they?) is simply the same phenomena. Ie. Lorentz interactions. Wrong? Highest regards, Vince
From: Szczepan Białek on 1 Mar 2010 03:51 "Vince Morgan" <vinhar(a)TAKEOUToptusnet.com.au> wrote news:4b8b775f$0$18229$afc38c87(a)news.optusnet.com.au... > > "Vince Morgan" <vinhar(a)TAKEOUToptusnet.com.au> wrote in message > news:4b8b749e$0$5591$afc38c87(a)news.optusnet.com.au... >> >> "Benj" <bjacoby(a)iwaynet.net> wrote in message >> news:6fbd81c5-5af2-485f-bb2d-106eed57199d(a)b30g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... >> On Feb 28, 10:28 pm, Salmon Egg <Salmon...(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> > [snip] >> Magnetic dipoles? >> Just when I was about ready to throw the notion of 'magnetism' (as an >> entity) out the window you bring in magetic dipoles Ben. >> What is a magnetic dipole if there IS only current? Could it be the > lorentz >> force/interaction is mirrored due to the opposite(opposite side of > nucleus) >> direction of the circulating current(electron) thereby giving what we >> have >> percieved as noth/south magnetic poles? >> Regards, >> Vince >> >> > IDIOCY! My appologies. > I'll try again. > Could it be that Lorentz force, being directional, is what we have > percieved > as magnetic dipoles? It pushes at one end and sucks on the other, so to > speak. I can see the Lorentze force dong this. And I see the > accumulation > of many Lorentz force vectors making one larger, errrr, magnetic field. > I mean, if there is no unique entity as a 'magnetic filed' then any > magnetic > dipole (All 'magnetic fields' are an aggragate of 'magnetic dipoles' > aren't > they?) is simply the same phenomena. Ie. Lorentz interactions. > Wrong? Right way. But the Lorentz interaction is not in agreement with the experiment. Lorentz-Grassman force is at right angle to a wire. Ampere proved that it is more complidated. See Fig. 3.1: http://www.df.lth.se/~snorkelf/Longitudinal/node4.html . See also: http://www.fjp.org.ar/APEIRON%20408.pdf S* > Highest regards, > Vince > >
From: Vince Morgan on 1 Mar 2010 04:59
"Szczepan Bia�ek" <sz.bialek(a)wp.pl> wrote in message news:hmfvsv$qbl$1(a)nemesis.news.neostrada.pl... [snip] > > IDIOCY! My appologies. > > I'll try again. > > Could it be that Lorentz force, being directional, is what we have > > percieved > > as magnetic dipoles? It pushes at one end and sucks on the other, so to > > speak. I can see the Lorentze force dong this. And I see the > > accumulation > > of many Lorentz force vectors making one larger, errrr, magnetic field. > > I mean, if there is no unique entity as a 'magnetic filed' then any > > magnetic > > dipole (All 'magnetic fields' are an aggragate of 'magnetic dipoles' > > aren't > > they?) is simply the same phenomena. Ie. Lorentz interactions. > > Wrong? > > Right way. But the Lorentz interaction is not in agreement with the > experiment. Lorentz-Grassman force is at right angle to a wire. > Ampere proved that it is more complidated. See Fig. 3.1: > http://www.df.lth.se/~snorkelf/Longitudinal/node4.html . > > See also: http://www.fjp.org.ar/APEIRON%20408.pdf > S* Just when I thought I had a handle on it @@ Wonderful! I only just now had a cursory glance at the first link and I will enjoy reading it very much I think. Thank you Szczepan! Regards, Vince |