Dumbed down consumer electronics: Adding DTV channels
in [Design]
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From: Joerg on 2 Aug 2010 18:25 mpm wrote: > On Aug 2, 11:11 am, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >> Kevin McMurtrie wrote: >>> In article <8bm6dmF9d...(a)mid.individual.net>, >>> Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>> Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow >>>> auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know >>>> DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out, >>>> sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that >>>> are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of >>>> digital channels. Changes all the time. >>>> But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says >>>> it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I >>>> find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is >>>> the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive? >>>> Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out. >>> Some tuners will let you punch in the real channel in analog mode. For >>> example, I can type "4 5 ENTER" (no dash makes it analog) and it will >>> hop to 44-1. I use the trick to get Sacto stations that won't show up >>> in a scan but are viewable at night. >> With most gear that doesn't work because 44-1 could actually be near the >> old Ch 35 or soemwhere else. Stations gave up their precious VHF >> channel. HUGE mistake. >> >>> I wish I could delete obsolete mappings. >> Most gear actually lets you do that. >> >> -- >> Regards, Joerg >> >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >> >> "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. >> Use another domain or send PM.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Actually, DTV performance on VHF isn't that great. > And TV-6 is a notoriously bad channel. > > There's work afoot at the FCC right now to take TV-6 (and maybe even > TV-5) and reallocate it to the FM band. > Something I highly support doing! > Nobody is going to buy new FM radios. That's why I predicted HD-radio to fizzle, which it did. > Also at the FCC last week, there was a Public Notice (or Rulemaking) > on ILLR standards. > ILLR is an acronym for Individual Location Longley-Rice, the point > being, the FCC is seeking comments on the use of that model to better > predict DTV coverage. > I'm not as involved in that anymore, but I did glance at the Notice > and there were some really good gems in there. > Including a few links on Land Use Land Cover databases, etc... > I think that whatever they do now, in hindsight, is going to be in vain. It's too late, TV stations have shot themselves in the foot. Yeah, our generation might let them force us onto sat or cable (well, except me ....) but when you talk to the next generation out here they just don't care about DTV channels pixelating out. They watch all news content on the Internet and all their movies come from Netflix. I believe TV station managers either don't know what's coming at them or are hoping to be retired when the financials start to tank. > But don't just automatically think VHF has great distance propagation > so it MUST be good for DTV. > Turns out, the propagation through walls is pretty bad (ray-tracing, > etc..), I think the sweet spot for OTA-DTV would be in the low-20's. That's what the Ch-13 chief engineer told me. Problem is, people in high-rises all have cable anyhow. Thru-wall propagation is largely a non-issue these days. I know only one person who uses rabbit ears. Because he's rarely ever home. > That said, I have DirecTV even though the market I'm in has more that > the average number of DTV sources (situated between two big markets). > We simply watch less. So do neighbors. And here goes the ad revenue ... -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Jan Panteltje on 2 Aug 2010 18:29 On a sunny day (Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:08:20 -0700) it happened Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in <8botupFq9aU1(a)mid.individual.net>: >Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:36:19 -0700) it happened Joerg >> <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in <8booi7FqgtU1(a)mid.individual.net>: >> >>>> Well, the news is usually bad, x killed, disaster here, war there, >>>> heat waves, bush fires, be glad it did not work:-) >>>> Play some good music instead. >>>> >>> But one needs to know the bad news as well. >> >> I am not sure actually, this is bit philosophical, >> but why should I know it? >> Today I though: Perhaps because it makes you feel better as it is far away, >> keeps people quiet, they think they are in an OK place. >> Politically motivated bad news? >> Of course a large part of the news is taken up by what politicians play. >> They are media maniacs that love any problem to get themselves in front of the camera, >> even if they have nothing useful to add. >> > >Out here the news is actualy not all that negative. But sometimes >boring. For example, I really don't need to know where Chelsey Clinton >got married. Exactly, before that it was the life of Paris Hilton IIRC. >>> [...] >>> >> >>>> Right, do not pay for the advertising! >>>> >>> No, we fast forward through it. One box even has an advertising FFW >>> button that hops it 30sec at a time. >> >> Good,. >> There exists soft with scene change detection too, IIRC. >> > >Yeah, but it works well enough by hand. I am also rather good in tuning >it out in my head, reading up on stuff during the news when the ads play. Once I made the mistake to actually edit it out. Those are the commercials I still remember, as I had to see them many times to get start, and end, and audio, right in the editior :-) >> >>>> And also the source material counts, garbage in garbage out. >>>> >>> Dancing with the Stars from BBC is super material, you really see a >>> difference. >> >> Now I am confused. >> If it was from BBC, then it must have been original 25 fps . >> that reminds me of dropped frames and fast pulldown, big problem with motion in >> a 30 fps country. >> Here the movies just play 25 fps, no dropped frames, but they are slightly shorter >> (original film was 24). >> The pitch of the audio is higher too. >> http://www.24p.com/conversion.htm >> > >Oh, Jan, we live in the 21st century. The times when such major events >were recorded in an analog format are long gone. Cannot follow you here, BBC was recorded at 25 fps (tape) or 24 fps (film). You play at 30 fps (or 60), so you have to interpolate frames and add those at irregular intervals. I have some Linux soft for that, it works, but the motion is not as smooth as at the original speed I think. Do you think digital does not know about frame rate? The problem we had here with LCD TVs (seems to go away with better sets) was that many sets were HD compatible but displayed the 25 fps material at 30 fps, causing horrible horizontal irregular jumping of the picture. >It's the level of the nerd factor. A big honking PC in the living room >requires one almost not to be married. A small one is ok, but only if >freshly married or close to the 50th anniversary :-) I think you still do not get the concept. I am not a fan of VDR, but have a look at Klaus his website: http://www.tvdr.de/ It does not have to be a 'big honking PC'. My media centre PC is not in the living room. There is no need for that, most modern TVs can access files on the media server, via a menu (and ethernet). There are cheap interface boxes available these days with HD output and ethernet connection for any room you want. In fact, with all those standards constantly changing, the best bet is to split everything up, monitor, receiver, disks, DVD burner. At least something will be of use a bit longer then the 2 to 5 years we now have between a system change, 3D is here hoopla, we just had HD . Do you have your 3D set yet?
From: Jim Thompson on 2 Aug 2010 18:34 On Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:08:20 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:36:19 -0700) it happened Joerg >> <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in <8booi7FqgtU1(a)mid.individual.net>: >> >>>> Well, the news is usually bad, x killed, disaster here, war there, >>>> heat waves, bush fires, be glad it did not work:-) >>>> Play some good music instead. >>>> >>> But one needs to know the bad news as well. >> >> I am not sure actually, this is bit philosophical, >> but why should I know it? >> Today I though: Perhaps because it makes you feel better as it is far away, >> keeps people quiet, they think they are in an OK place. >> Politically motivated bad news? >> Of course a large part of the news is taken up by what politicians play. >> They are media maniacs that love any problem to get themselves in front of the camera, >> even if they have nothing useful to add. >> > >Out here the news is actualy not all that negative. But sometimes >boring. For example, I really don't need to know where Chelsey Clinton >got married. She did? I didn't know that! I thought she was too ugly ;-) > >> >>> [...] >>> >> >>>> Right, do not pay for the advertising! >>>> >>> No, we fast forward through it. One box even has an advertising FFW >>> button that hops it 30sec at a time. >> >> Good,. >> There exists soft with scene change detection too, IIRC. >> > >Yeah, but it works well enough by hand. I am also rather good in tuning >it out in my head, reading up on stuff during the news when the ads play. > >> >>>> And also the source material counts, garbage in garbage out. >>>> >>> Dancing with the Stars from BBC is super material, you really see a >>> difference. >> >> Now I am confused. >> If it was from BBC, then it must have been original 25 fps . >> that reminds me of dropped frames and fast pulldown, big problem with motion in >> a 30 fps country. >> Here the movies just play 25 fps, no dropped frames, but they are slightly shorter >> (original film was 24). >> The pitch of the audio is higher too. >> http://www.24p.com/conversion.htm >> > >Oh, Jan, we live in the 21st century. The times when such major events >were recorded in an analog format are long gone. > > >>> I want the regular stuff to work right, my wife will not want a nerd box >>> in the living room ;-) >> >> >> Na ja, these days everybody needs to be a nerd, to use even you cellphone >> or laptop, or GPS, or TV, or camera, or whatever. >> Washing machine too. >> >> Maybe one day this will go away, and a robot will do those thing, >> like programming all those gadgets, >> But I am sure that will create problems of its own. >> > >It's the level of the nerd factor. A big honking PC in the living room >requires one almost not to be married. A small one is ok, but only if >freshly married or close to the 50th anniversary :-) I was down to Aaron's acreage yesterday... 12 Dell rack-mounted servers :-) Our cable box has an HD... pause while going potty... fast forward thru commercials :-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Spice is like a sports car... Performance only as good as the person behind the wheel.
From: Joerg on 2 Aug 2010 18:52 Jan Panteltje wrote: > On a sunny day (Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:08:20 -0700) it happened Joerg > <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in <8botupFq9aU1(a)mid.individual.net>: > > >> Jan Panteltje wrote: >>> On a sunny day (Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:36:19 -0700) it happened >>> Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in >>> <8booi7FqgtU1(a)mid.individual.net>: >>> [...] > >>>> [...] >>>> >>>>> Right, do not pay for the advertising! >>>>> >>>> No, we fast forward through it. One box even has an advertising >>>> FFW button that hops it 30sec at a time. >>> Good,. There exists soft with scene change detection too, IIRC. >>> >> Yeah, but it works well enough by hand. I am also rather good in >> tuning it out in my head, reading up on stuff during the news when >> the ads play. > > Once I made the mistake to actually edit it out. Those are the > commercials I still remember, as I had to see them many times to get > start, and end, and audio, right in the editior :-) > Very few ads remained in my gray cells. The only one I remember from the six years I lived in NL is from Douwe Egberts "En dan is er koffie". > >>>>> And also the source material counts, garbage in garbage out. >>>>> >>>> Dancing with the Stars from BBC is super material, you really >>>> see a difference. >>> Now I am confused. If it was from BBC, then it must have been >>> original 25 fps . that reminds me of dropped frames and fast >>> pulldown, big problem with motion in a 30 fps country. Here the >>> movies just play 25 fps, no dropped frames, but they are slightly >>> shorter (original film was 24). The pitch of the audio is higher >>> too. http://www.24p.com/conversion.htm >>> >> Oh, Jan, we live in the 21st century. The times when such major >> events were recorded in an analog format are long gone. > > Cannot follow you here, BBC was recorded at 25 fps (tape) or 24 fps > (film). You play at 30 fps (or 60), so you have to interpolate frames > and add those at irregular intervals. I have some Linux soft for > that, it works, but the motion is not as smooth as at the original > speed I think. Do you think digital does not know about frame rate? > The problem we had here with LCD TVs (seems to go away with better > sets) was that many sets were HD compatible but displayed the 25 fps > material at 30 fps, causing horrible horizontal irregular jumping of > the picture. > This is what's cooking these days: http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/pdf/HDK77EX0401s.pdf Most modern cameras can be switched so you can record in several native frame rate standards: http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/hdtv_camera_frame1.html I don't know how they do it but there is no interpolation at all. I believe they record in US format because the participants are mostly American, so it's for our market. The judges are one American, one British and one (rather hot-blooded ...) Italian. > >> It's the level of the nerd factor. A big honking PC in the living >> room requires one almost not to be married. A small one is ok, but >> only if freshly married or close to the 50th anniversary :-) > > I think you still do not get the concept. I am not a fan of VDR, but > have a look at Klaus his website: http://www.tvdr.de/ It does not > have to be a 'big honking PC'. ... It is pretty big. Anyhow, ours has the described features as well or pretty close: http://www.tvdr.de/software.htm Except we have to swap out the disk after x hours. Ok, no big deal. > ... My media centre PC is not in the > living room. There is no need for that, most modern TVs can access > files on the media server, via a menu (and ethernet). There are cheap > interface boxes available these days with HD output and ethernet > connection for any room you want. In fact, with all those standards > constantly changing, the best bet is to split everything up, monitor, > receiver, disks, DVD burner. At least something will be of use a bit > longer then the 2 to 5 years we now have between a system change, 3D > is here hoopla, we just had HD . Do you have your 3D set yet? > No, and no need to. Same with BlueRay. Since we are into older movies and don't like games or scifi there would be no use for that here. We rather spend that money at the Japanese restaurant, like today :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Jim Thompson on 2 Aug 2010 19:02
On Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:52:27 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Jan Panteltje wrote: >> On a sunny day (Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:08:20 -0700) it happened Joerg >> <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in <8botupFq9aU1(a)mid.individual.net>: >> >> >>> Jan Panteltje wrote: >>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:36:19 -0700) it happened >>>> Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in >>>> <8booi7FqgtU1(a)mid.individual.net>: >>>> > >[...] > >> >>>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>>> Right, do not pay for the advertising! >>>>>> >>>>> No, we fast forward through it. One box even has an advertising >>>>> FFW button that hops it 30sec at a time. >>>> Good,. There exists soft with scene change detection too, IIRC. >>>> >>> Yeah, but it works well enough by hand. I am also rather good in >>> tuning it out in my head, reading up on stuff during the news when >>> the ads play. >> >> Once I made the mistake to actually edit it out. Those are the >> commercials I still remember, as I had to see them many times to get >> start, and end, and audio, right in the editior :-) >> > >Very few ads remained in my gray cells. The only one I remember from the >six years I lived in NL is from Douwe Egberts "En dan is er koffie". I preferred the Cavendish myself ;-) [snip] ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Spice is like a sports car... Performance only as good as the person behind the wheel. |