Efficient methods
in [Embedded]
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From: David W. Hodgins on 20 Feb 2010 14:38 On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:02:20 -0500, Paul Keinanen <keinanen(a)sci.fi> wrote: > As long as you have a simple transaction system, one incoming request, > one outgoing response, why on earth would any sensible person create a > TCP/IP connection for this simple transaction ? In many cases, the outgoing response will not fit in one packet. TCP takes care of handling out-of-order responses being received by the client. Regards, Dave Hodgins -- Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email. (nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.)
From: karthikbalaguru on 20 Feb 2010 14:49 On Feb 20, 8:03 pm, Tim Watts <t...(a)dionic.net> wrote: > karthikbalaguru <karthikbalagur...(a)gmail.com> > wibbled on Saturday 20 February 2010 13:10 > > > While reading about the various designs, interestingly i > > came across an info that the design of TCP servers is > > mostly such that whenever it accepts a connection, > > a new process is invoked to handle it . > > Not generally true these days - used to be the method of choice, see > below... > > > But, it seems that in the case of UDP servers design, > > there is only a single process that handles all client > > requests. Why such a difference in design of TCP and > > UDP servers ? How is TCP server able to handle > > large number of very rapid near-simultaneous connections ? > > Any ideas ? > > First I recommend signing up to O'Reilly's Safari books onlinbe service - or > buy some actual books. There are some excellent O'Reilly books specifically > on TCP/IP. > > In the meantime, speaking generally (without embedded systems specifically > in mind): > > TCP = reliable stream connection oriented protocol. No worrying about > sequences, out of order packet delivery, missed packets - except in as much > as your application needs to handle the TCP stack declaring it's given up > (exception handling). Some overhead in setting up (3 way handshake) and > closedown. > > UDP = datagram protocol and your application needs to worry about all the > rest above, if it cares. But very light - no setup/closedown. > > Regarding TCP service architechture, there are 3 main classes: > > 1) Forking server; > 2) Threaded server; > 3) Multiplexing server; > > 1 - simplest to program, heaviest on system resources. But you can > potentially (on a real *nix system) simply write a program that talks to > STDIN/STDOUT and shove it behind (x)inetd and have a network server without > a single line of network code in your program. Perfectly good method for > light load servers where latency is not an issue. > Interesting to know a method for having a Light load TCP server by using the existing utilities in Linux/Unix in the form of Forking Server ! > 2 - Popular - little harder to program, much more efficient, assuming your > OS can handle thread creation more lightly than process creation. > Threaded Server seems to be good, but it might be overloading the TCP server very quickly incase of fast multiple connection requests within a very short timeframe. Just as you said, i think if the thread creation is of less overhead in the particular OS in which TCP server is running, then it would be great. I came across preforking tricks too where a server launches a number of child processes when it starts . Those inturn would be serving the new connection requests by having some kind of locking mechanism around the call to accept so that at any point of time, only one child can use it and the others will be blocked until the lock is released. There seem to be some way out of that locking problem. But, i think the idea of creation of one child for every new connection/client seems to be better than the preforking trick, but these tricks in turn overload the TCP server incase of fast successive/near-simultaneous connection requests within a short time frame. Just as you said, i think if the thread creation is of less overhead in the particular OS in which TCP server is running, then it would be great. > 3 - Very efficient. One process maintains a state for all connections, often > using event methodology to call service subroutines when something > interesting happens (eg new connection, data arrived, output capable of > accepting data, connection closed). Sounds horrible, but with an OO > approach, very easy to get your head around. Now bearing in mind that > anything in OO can be bastardised to a handle and an array of struct which > holds the equivalent data that an OO object would, this could be a very > suitable method for emebedded systems where C may be the language of choice > and there may be no OS or only a very simple one that doesn't map well. > Having one process for maintaining states of all connections and implementing the event methodology that calls service subroutines whenever a certain specific instance happens sounds interesting. Appears to be the ultimate method for embedded systems where OS is absent and C is the main language . Anyhow, need to analyze the drawbacks if any. > Now, doing 3 wouldn't be so far different to doing it all in UDP *except* > you now have to care about packet delivery unreliability - as you can get a > variety of stacks for many embedded systems, why not let someone else's hard > work help you out? > > -- Karthik Balaguru
From: Jorgen Grahn on 20 Feb 2010 16:22 ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.protocols.tcp-ip.] On Sat, 2010-02-20, Paul Keinanen wrote: > On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 08:15:13 -0800 (PST), karthikbalaguru > <karthikbalaguru79(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >>Agreed, but the query is about the design of the >>TCP server and the UDP server. In TCP server .... >>Will the TCP server get overloaded if it creates >>a new process for every new connection ? How is >>it being managed ? > > As long as you have a simple transaction system, one incoming request, > one outgoing response, why on earth would any sensible person create a > TCP/IP connection for this simple transaction ? To continue in the same confrontational tone: Because UDP doesn't work in practice except in some very limited scenarios. This is also why almost no widely used application protocols use UDP. If you're arguing that UDP is generally a better transport protocol than TCP, you're in a small minority. I also note that it was you who brought up these simple transaction systems. It's not implied in the text you quoted (although it does make pointless comparisons between the internal workings of UDP and TCP servers -- pointless because that's not what makes you decide to use TCP or UDP.) /Jorgen -- // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . . \X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
From: karthikbalaguru on 20 Feb 2010 16:26 On Feb 20, 11:13 pm, Joe Pfeiffer <pfeif...(a)cs.nmsu.edu> wrote: > karthikbalaguru <karthikbalagur...(a)gmail.com> writes: > > On Feb 20, 8:08 pm, markhob...(a)hotpop.donottypethisbit.com (Mark > > Hobley) wrote: > >> karthikbalaguru <karthikbalagur...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > While reading about the various designs, interestingly i > >> > came across an info that the design of TCP servers is > >> > mostly such that whenever it accepts a connection, > >> > a new process is invoked to handle it . > > >> TCP is a "reliable" connection, whereas UDP is "unreliable". If you understand > >> the difference between these two types of connections, it should be clear why > >> this is so, and you would know which connection type best suits your > >> application. > > > Agreed, but the query is about the design of the > > TCP server and the UDP server. In TCP server > > whenever a new connection arrives, it accepts the > > connection and invokes a new process to handle > > the new connection request. The main point here > > is that 'a new process is created to handle every > > new connection that arrives at the server' . > > In the case of UDP server, it seems that most > > of the the server design is such that there is only > > one process to handle various clients. > > Will the TCP server get overloaded if it creates > > a new process for every new connection ? How is > > it being managed ? > > Tim Watts did an excellent job two posts up-thread describing three > different architectures for TCP servers. To summarize the part that > relates directly to your question: if you've got a really heavy load, > the server can indeed get overloaded. In that case, you need to work > harder and do something like a threaded or multiplexing server. > > True ! Need to decide on the best design methodology between either threaded or multiplexing server. > > >> > How is TCP server able to handle large number of very rapid > >> > near-simultaneous connections ? > > >> The datagrams carry identification numbers that enable them to be related > >> to the controlling processes, enabling them to be easily managed. > > > The point here is, consider a scenario that there are > > multiple connection requests are arriving while the > > TCP server is busy in the process of creation of a > > new process for the earlier connection request. > > How does TCP handle those multiple connection > > requests during that scenario ? > > That's what the backlog parameter on the listen() call is for. If the > number of pending requests is less than or equal to that number, they > get queued. When the number of pending requests exceeds it, requests > start getting refused. Great ! I checked thee backlog parameter, yes it seems to be providing support interms of queing :-) !! The below link seems to have some good info about backlog parameter - http://www.linuxjournal.com/files/linuxjournal.com/linuxjournal/articles/023/2333/2333s2.html It seems that it plays a role in determining the maximum rate at which a server can accept new TCP connections on a socket. Interesting to know that the rate at which new connections can be accepted is equal to the listen backlog divided by the round-trip time of the path between client and server. Thx, Karthik Balaguru
From: Joe Pfeiffer on 20 Feb 2010 19:13
Paul Keinanen <keinanen(a)sci.fi> writes: > On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 08:15:13 -0800 (PST), karthikbalaguru > <karthikbalaguru79(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >>Agreed, but the query is about the design of the >>TCP server and the UDP server. In TCP server >>whenever a new connection arrives, it accepts the >>connection and invokes a new process to handle >>the new connection request. The main point here >>is that 'a new process is created to handle every >>new connection that arrives at the server' . >>In the case of UDP server, it seems that most >>of the the server design is such that there is only >>one process to handle various clients. >>Will the TCP server get overloaded if it creates >>a new process for every new connection ? How is >>it being managed ? > > As long as you have a simple transaction system, one incoming request, > one outgoing response, why on earth would any sensible person create a > TCP/IP connection for this simple transaction ? To avoid having to deal with dropped/corrupted packets yourself. -- As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin) |