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From: sorin on 14 Apr 2010 07:43
{Ah... the 'advantage' of the usual battery construction is that the
electrodes are ONLY 'used up' when there is current flow through the
external circuit. In your 'cell', the electrodes go away quickly,
even
without any useful work being done externally. }


The original Daneil cell and the first Volta cell are working similar
with proposed cell(Zn,Fe and sulfuric acid). In fact a variant of the
daniell cell was so sensible to displacement that only static use was
alowed ( in fact some phone companies used it up to 1950 in this kind
of static but continous aplications).

The problem of electrode consume only when an external resistor is
connected to it is a question of reaction type and the possibility to
drive it into a certain way.

Of course every time there are good reason for doing something... even
supporters of epicycles theory had good reasons to add a new
epicycle.

Sorin Cosofret


From: Jerry on 14 Apr 2010 12:49
On Apr 14, 6:43 am, sorin <sorincosof...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> {Ah... the 'advantage' of the usual battery construction is that the
> electrodes are ONLY 'used up' when there is current flow through the
> external circuit. In your 'cell', the electrodes go away quickly,
> even
> without any useful work being done externally. }
>
> The original Daneil cell and the first Volta cell are working similar
> with proposed cell(Zn,Fe and sulfuric acid).

FALSE!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniell_cell

> In fact a variant of the
> daniell cell

I presume you mean the "gravity cell"

> was so sensible to displacement that only static use was
> alowed ( in fact some phone companies used it up to 1950 in this kind
> of static but continous  aplications).
>
> The problem of electrode consume only when an external resistor is
> connected to it is a question of reaction type  and the possibility to
> drive it into a certain way.

It's a question of SENSIBLE battery design versus STUPID design.

> Of course every time there are good reason for doing something... even
> supporters of epicycles theory had good reasons to add a new
> epicycle.

YOUR idiotic design continuously consumes both electrodes whether
or not a circuit exists. There are NO good reasons for designing
a battery your way.

Jerry
From: sorin on 15 Apr 2010 04:18
I think it’s better to revise your definition for idiotic design.…

1. Every incipient battery ever designed (Volta or Daniell) were used
for occasionally researches or for continuously application, but in
this case there were persons trained to change the electrodes and the
solutions. Mainly, the employers of phone and telegraphy companies
were trained to ensure the functionality of Daniel cells every day.
2. The purpose of proposed experiment is not to make a commercial
battery; of course maybe in the future with other compounds this think
will be possible and it is not the case to discuss here this aspect.
The purpose of experiment was to demonstrate that an anode and cathode
oxidation generates an electric current.
3. For science it is very important when a ,,case “ does not fit with
entire edifice of an accepted theory. When more ,,cases” appear in a
theory, this is a sign that a change is necessary. Every time in
science an individual has an idea and the mass later or sooner accept
or deny that idea. The science is not made by persons who push a
button and hear the radio and they think they understand electricity
(as example). I make the activity of posting messages only for having
a proof that a new theory exists and it is not accepted. I have time
to wait that change …




From: sorin on 15 Apr 2010 04:26
> The original Daneil cell and the first Volta cell are working similar
> with proposed cell(Zn,Fe and sulfuric acid).



FALSE!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniell_cell


> In fact a variant of the
> daniell cell


I presume you mean the "gravity cell"


I think it's better for your practice to build a gravity cell, and to
leave it over the night without a consumer connected between anode and
cathode and try to measure in the second day the potential and current
into circuit...
You will see that your battery is gone...
So, the same mechanism governs the idiotic design of proposed battery
and daniell cell.
In one case there is a Zn metal consumption and Cu metal generation,
but in solution Zn species are increased and Cu is diminished.
In other case there is Zn and Fe consumption and increasing of both
species in solution.

From: Jerry on 15 Apr 2010 05:54
On Apr 15, 3:18 am, sorin <sorincosof...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think it’s better to revise your definition for idiotic design.…
>
> 1.      Every incipient battery ever designed (Volta or Daniell) were used
> for occasionally researches or for continuously application, but in
> this case there were persons trained to change the electrodes and the
> solutions. Mainly, the employers of phone and telegraphy companies
> were trained to ensure the functionality of Daniel cells every day.
> 2.      The purpose of proposed experiment is not to make a commercial
> battery; of course maybe in the future with other compounds this think
> will be possible and it is not the case to discuss here this aspect.
> The purpose of experiment was to demonstrate that an anode and cathode
> oxidation generates an electric current.

Both electrodes experience continuous oxidation in strong sulfuric
acid in the complete absence of any current, as evidenced by the
continuous evolution of hydrogen bubbles from both plates even
while unconnected by a wire.

But by connecting the plates with a wire, you INCREASE the rate
of oxidation from the negative electrode (i.e. the electrode from
which you are withdrawing electrons) and DECREASE the rate of
oxidation from the positive electrode (i.e. the electrode to which
you are feeding electrons.)

So what happens in your so-called "experiment" is in complete
accord with standard theory.

> 3.       For science it is very important when a ,,case “ does not fit with
> entire edifice of an accepted theory.

Your stupid experiment does no such thing.

All it does is show that iron and zinc dissolve in sulfuric acid.

> When more ,,cases” appear in a
> theory, this is a sign that a change is necessary. Every time in
> science an individual has an idea and the mass later or sooner accept
> or deny that idea. The science is not made by persons who push a
> button and hear the radio and they think they understand electricity
> (as example). I make the activity of posting messages only for having
> a proof that a new theory exists and it is not accepted. I have time
> to wait that change …

Jerry
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