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From: tim.... on 10 Mar 2010 07:03 "Dennis" <dennis(a)nowhere.net> wrote in message news:MkAln.249590$OX4.211042(a)newsfe25.iad... > tim.... wrote: >> "Walter Banks" <walter(a)bytecraft.com> wrote in message >> news:4B96B666.65C09F1C(a)bytecraft.com... >>> >>> "tim...." wrote: >>> >>>> "Tim Wescott" <tim(a)seemywebsite.now> wrote in message >>>>> Think engine computers, >>>> does an engine have a computer in it, or is there a computer somewhere >>>> in >>>> the car controlling the engine? >>>> >>>> tim >>> Both, >> >> I'm surprised by that answer. >> >> 99.9999% of the time, if one of these deeply embedded processors dies >> then the complete product is scrap. >> >> The idea that you would have to buy (and fit) a completely new engine >> because one of the controlling processors dies just doesn't make sense. >> >> tim >> >> >> > They can replace the computer - about $700-$800 - probably more for luxury > cars I know that can That is why I am questioning its definition as "deeply embedded" within the engine (using the definition of deeply embedded from earlier in the thread). If it's in its own box then it isn't embedded within the engine, its a completely separate component of the car. tim
From: tim.... on 10 Mar 2010 07:04 "Tim Wescott" <tim(a)seemywebsite.now> wrote in message news:d9WdnfmmodmfTAvWnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d(a)web-ster.com... > tim.... wrote: >> "Walter Banks" <walter(a)bytecraft.com> wrote in message >> news:4B96B666.65C09F1C(a)bytecraft.com... >>> >>> "tim...." wrote: >>> >>>> "Tim Wescott" <tim(a)seemywebsite.now> wrote in message >>>>> Think engine computers, >>>> does an engine have a computer in it, or is there a computer somewhere >>>> in >>>> the car controlling the engine? >>>> >>>> tim >>> Both, >> >> I'm surprised by that answer. >> >> 99.9999% of the time, if one of these deeply embedded processors dies >> then the complete product is scrap. >> >> The idea that you would have to buy (and fit) a completely new engine >> because one of the controlling processors dies just doesn't make sense. > > If the engine management computer dies then the engine stops working, yes. > But we're not at the point yet where just because one part of your car > dies you throw away the whole car. I think you misunderstood the point that I was making. See my reply to Dennis tim
From: Tim Wescott on 10 Mar 2010 12:02 tim.... wrote: > "Dennis" <dennis(a)nowhere.net> wrote in message > news:MkAln.249590$OX4.211042(a)newsfe25.iad... >> tim.... wrote: >>> "Walter Banks" <walter(a)bytecraft.com> wrote in message >>> news:4B96B666.65C09F1C(a)bytecraft.com... >>>> "tim...." wrote: >>>> >>>>> "Tim Wescott" <tim(a)seemywebsite.now> wrote in message >>>>>> Think engine computers, >>>>> does an engine have a computer in it, or is there a computer somewhere >>>>> in >>>>> the car controlling the engine? >>>>> >>>>> tim >>>> Both, >>> I'm surprised by that answer. >>> >>> 99.9999% of the time, if one of these deeply embedded processors dies >>> then the complete product is scrap. >>> >>> The idea that you would have to buy (and fit) a completely new engine >>> because one of the controlling processors dies just doesn't make sense. >>> >>> tim >>> >>> >>> >> They can replace the computer - about $700-$800 - probably more for luxury >> cars > > I know that can > > That is why I am questioning its definition as "deeply embedded" within the > engine (using the definition of deeply embedded from earlier in the thread). > If it's in its own box then it isn't embedded within the engine, its a > completely separate component of the car. Who said "within the engine"? Interesting divergence of definitions. Without really arguing with you ('cause there's no really good definition of 'embedded' yet, much less 'deeply embedded'), let me give you mine: Establish a spectrum of uses of a microprocessor. On one end, put the computer that I have on my lap -- it runs Linux (or Windows), I'm composing a newsgroup response on it, there are games and office programs and scientific analysis programs lying dormant on it. It can do a bazillion different things, all oriented to the user, but without attaching additional hardware to it the thing is incapable of turning a motor, lighting a light (other than the screen backlight), maintaining a temperature, making a spark plug fire at a certain time, etc. On the other end of this spectrum put a microcontroller that does nothing with its clock cycles but retrieve voltage measurements from one or more ADCs, perform signal processing algorithms on the readings, then writes the calculated values out to DACs. Give it no keyboard or keyboard interface, give it no screen or screen driver. If you're smart you'll give it a diagnostic interface so it can talk to an external computer, but in normal use that diagnostic interface won't be active. I label the one end of the spectrum "regular old computer" or "personal computer", and the other end of the spectrum "deeply embedded". Even if that deeply embedded processor is mounted on a post in a grain field in Nebraska, even if it is so physically 'un-embedded' that it is sun-bleached and has bird droppings on it, functionally it is still 'deeply embedded' and about as far from a PC as you can get, even when a farm hand eats his lunch with his back against the pole, playing solitaire on his laptop. -- Tim Wescott Control system and signal processing consulting www.wescottdesign.com
From: tim.... on 10 Mar 2010 13:38
"Tim Wescott" <tim(a)seemywebsite.now> wrote in message news:CPKdnRpIvaBNTQrWnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d(a)web-ster.com... > tim.... wrote: >> "Dennis" <dennis(a)nowhere.net> wrote in message >> news:MkAln.249590$OX4.211042(a)newsfe25.iad... >>> tim.... wrote: >>>> "Walter Banks" <walter(a)bytecraft.com> wrote in message >>>> news:4B96B666.65C09F1C(a)bytecraft.com... >>>>> "tim...." wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> "Tim Wescott" <tim(a)seemywebsite.now> wrote in message >>>>>>> Think engine computers, >>>>>> does an engine have a computer in it, or is there a computer >>>>>> somewhere in >>>>>> the car controlling the engine? >>>>>> >>>>>> tim >>>>> Both, >>>> I'm surprised by that answer. >>>> >>>> 99.9999% of the time, if one of these deeply embedded processors dies >>>> then the complete product is scrap. >>>> >>>> The idea that you would have to buy (and fit) a completely new engine >>>> because one of the controlling processors dies just doesn't make sense. >>>> >>>> tim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> They can replace the computer - about $700-$800 - probably more for >>> luxury cars >> >> I know that can >> >> That is why I am questioning its definition as "deeply embedded" within >> the engine (using the definition of deeply embedded from earlier in the >> thread). If it's in its own box then it isn't embedded within the engine, >> its a completely separate component of the car. > > Who said "within the engine"? I did in my original question "does an engine have a computer in it" and the answer I got was "yes". So I continued from there. tim |