FYI: Creating circular references is a perfectly OK thing to do.
in [JavaScript]
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From: Richard Cornford on 27 Jul 2010 10:39 On Jul 27, 3:05 pm, Ry Nohryb wrote: > On Jul 27, 1:58 pm, Richard Cornford wrote: >> What is an "innerHTML bug"? > > Who knows. > >> The - innerHTML - property is a Microsoft >> invention, and has not yet become subject to any formal >> standard (proposals don't count in this regard), so there >> are very good grounds for asserting that whatever IE does >> is 'correct' (because they define their own invention), and >> whenever anyone else differs then they are the ones with >> the 'bug'. > > I see, it's my fault to expect it to work with ... <snip> Yes, demanding that your expectations are satisfied without first having good grounds for those expectations is not reasonable. IE introduced the - innerHTML - property, and in IE it has never worked any differently than it does now. If others introduce non-compatible imitations of Microsoft's browser features that is no reason to expect those features to work any differently in Microsoft's browser. Richard.
From: Ry Nohryb on 27 Jul 2010 11:03 On Jul 27, 4:12 pm, Asen Bozhilov <asen.bozhi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Ry Nohryb wrote: > > Asen Bozhilov wrote: > > > > Please follow the posted link. As I wrote the problem is in the > > > programmer, not in GC. (...) > > > The problem is in IE, only in IE. > > It is propaganda. While IE is not the best browser which has been > made, your objections are demagogy. What exactly is the problem that > you can not write applications without circular reference pattern? How > many time circular reference pattern is the best design which you can > choice? If you do not want to care about circular reference pattern - > just do not created in first place. The problem is that Microsoft has done a lot of ugly things to the web, and this is just another, one more. The problem is that they have had a botched browser for a decade and have shown not even the slightest intention of fixing any of its many bugs, nor any embarrassment (remember IE's string concatenation "issue" ? geez, LOL). What a shame. The problem is that there was no need for this to be so. The problem is that circular references ought to pose no problem at all, as is the case in any other browser. The problem is that all these things together (long list of bugs + premeditated non- compliance with w3 standards) are what turn the life of a web programmer into a nightmare, and what kills the interoperability of web sites across browsers and platforms. The problem is M$ pissing off the web and the web community (both web users and web developers) for so many years while they were in control. If there's any justice, IE should die, and M$ ought to be banned from the web, forever, by the people. That's what M$/IE deserves, IMHO. Because while they've been in control, they've used all their power -blatantly- against the best interests of the web as a platform. I like the web, I want the web, and I want it to move forward: the opposite of Microsoft's interests: they want you to be tied to their windozes OS, they don't want you to use a platform (the web) that does not depend in any way on their Windows® OSs. They've been trying hard to stagnate / asphyxiate a platform (the web) that could run in any other (non-Windows®) platform. They don't want the web to work well, never, ever, because the web platform puts their Windows OS platform business at risk. That's why they've doing ~ 0 wrt the web during the last decade, almost not even a single bug fix. -- Jorge.
From: Ry Nohryb on 27 Jul 2010 11:15 On Jul 27, 4:12 pm, Asen Bozhilov <asen.bozhi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Ry Nohryb wrote: > > Asen Bozhilov wrote: > > > > Please follow the posted link. As I wrote the problem is in the > > > programmer, not in GC. (...) > > > The problem is in IE, only in IE. > > It is propaganda. While IE is not the best browser which has been > made, your objections are demagogy. What exactly is the problem that > you can not write applications without circular reference pattern? How > many time circular reference pattern is the best design which you can > choice? If you do not want to care about circular reference pattern - > just do not created in first place. <short response> Your position seems to be: given that IE has this bug --->>> you shouldn't create circular references. My position is: regardless of IE, not matter how much botched it is, there's nothing wrong with circular references per se. </short response> -- Jorge.
From: Matt Kruse on 27 Jul 2010 12:29 On Jul 27, 10:15 am, Ry Nohryb <jo...(a)jorgechamorro.com> wrote: > Your position seems to be: given that IE has this bug --->>> you > shouldn't create circular references. > My position is: regardless of IE, not matter how much botched it is, > there's nothing wrong with circular references per se. Depends on your goal. If you want to write code that works in browsers that don't have problems, and you can ignore some users, then write circular references and give MS the middle finger. If you want to write code that needs to run in an environment where IE is used (whether you like it or not) then you need to code around these and other bugs. Working with and around software that causes problems is a major source of income for many people. Some can ignore the problem entirely, while others profit from being able to solve the problem for those who have it. Basically, I don't see your point. Arguing that Microsoft is ruining the web is so 1996. Matt Kruse
From: Ry Nohryb on 27 Jul 2010 15:15
On Jul 27, 6:29 pm, Matt Kruse <m...(a)thekrusefamily.com> wrote: > > If you want to write code that works in browsers that don't have > problems, and you can ignore some users, then write circular > references and give MS the middle finger. > > If you want to write code that needs to run in an environment where IE > is used (whether you like it or not) then you need to code around > these and other bugs. > > (...) > > Basically, I don't see your point. (...) That there's nothing in CRs that produce memory leaks, that CRs can be garbage collected properly, that CRs are useful, that CRs are a perfectly OK thing to do. As expandos, BTW. That what's broken is IE. That JavaScript/The Web coding style should not be dictated by IE's bugs no longer, not any more, that statements such as "don't use NFEs" or "circular references produce memory leaks" are bullshit, that you're fighting the wrong enemy. That the problem isn't CRs or NFEs, that the problem is Microsoft, Microsoft's attitude, and its Internet Explorers. That there are at least 4 very good alternatives to solve this no-problem: Safari, Chrome, Opera and FireFox. And that the people (the users) should receive this message clear and loudly and asap, because that's the reason that will make them want to switch to a better browser, to one that's not broken. But they need to be told. They're not programmers. They don't know what's going on. They need to receive the message clearly. But for this to happen, you/we/them web programmers should stop coding workarounds that distort the truth as if nothing were wrong, and leave Microsoft and their IE to the fate that it deserves given what it is. Say that a new browser came out today, and it came full of bugs. The people who would try it, would see that it doesn't work, and would just trash it. We should attempt to force the people (as much as we can) to trash their IEs, because IEs are bags of bugs, and because there are good alternatives, and because it's not our fault that IEs are what they are and because Microsoft has has plenty of time to fix them but has not, and we are suffering it, the web is suffering due to it, the web coding style is being awfulized due to it, and this has to stop, the sooner the better. So, I'd say, just USE CRs and NFEs and expandos and R/W innerHTMLs and the <canvas> and everything that's available and common and works in the four decent browsers that are out there and freely available, and try to force M$ to fix and update IE, or the users to switch, and help stop distorting the reality. -- Jorge. |