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From: Grant on 1 Aug 2010 20:44
On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:14:14 -0500, "krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" <krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

>On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 15:32:32 +1000, Grant <omg(a)grrr.id.au> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 11:57:41 +0800, Ross Herbert <rherber1(a)bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:03:24 -0400, "Martin Riddle" <martin_rid(a)verizon.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>:
>>>:
>>>:"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote
>>>:in message news:0ok6561m4ftedj3mv5368vmm8gdc432fln(a)4ax.com...
>>>:> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:14:05 -0700, Jim Thompson
>>>:> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>>>:>
>>>:>>GM's Electric Lemon...
>>>:>>
>>>:>>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/opinion/30neidermeyer.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
>>>:>>
>>>:>> ...Jim Thompson
>>>:>
>>>:> Anyone have any idea how many kWh of charge is required for the
>>>:> "electric range" of 40 miles?
>>>:>
>>>:> ...Jim Thompson
>>>:
>>>:
>>>:From the chevy web site, it looks like ~ 13kwh.
>>>:That's from their $1.50 a day and 12c a kwh.
>>>:
>>>:<http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/volt.do>
>>>:
>>>:But, I hear the Prius's batteries tend to become unbalance after a few
>>>:years, and they need to be painstakenly charged and balanced.
>>>:
>>>:I'm not convinced yet.
>>>
>>>Me neither....
>>>
>>>All of the DIY electric vehicles I have inspected employ a cell equalisation
>>>circuit on every lithium-ion cell in the string. I guess that would be just too
>>>expensive for GM.
>>
>>Got to be done if you want best life out of the battery pack, they
>>just need to cover warranty period? People buy on price, don't look
>>at the cut corners manufacturers make to meet the low price demand.
>
>The warranty is 100K miles or 8 years. That's quite a long life to not have
>equalization, I agree. Of course the fine print in the warranty could have
>such a low threshold of operation that it doesn't matter. Yeah, my wife's 3+
>year old laptop battery works, but not for a useful amount of time.

But that's about the useful life for lithium? They don't last long,
though I've not looked at lithium battery technology since about five
years ago.
>
>>Like the older new cars that one had to remove original plugs and
>>fit grease nipples in order to perform normal maintenance? You
>>wouldn't guess the proper part cost much more?
>
>Except that greasing the linkages wasn't considered "normal maintenance". They
>were "permanently lubricated".

Old car, nipples had to be fitted as part of scheduled service per the
service manual. Was Ford that did it over here, just something struck
me as odd, in the service manual.

The Landcruiser I bought new in '85 had too many, when I went to a 4WD
driving club education session, they pointed out a couple of them and
said "if you don't grease them, no one else will"... It's common for
4WDs that don't go bush driving to lose their front drive train to
neglect. Getting too OT.

I'd like electric 4WD with smart power delivery to each wheel, and
I think an electric vehicle needs aux motor for the long distance
travel option. A battery only vehicle may as well be golf cart size
for city driving. Or two wheels?

So much more energy held in liquid fuels compared to current battery
technology.

Grant.
From: krw on 1 Aug 2010 21:10
On Mon, 02 Aug 2010 10:44:20 +1000, Grant <omg(a)grrr.id.au> wrote:

>On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:14:14 -0500, "krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" <krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 15:32:32 +1000, Grant <omg(a)grrr.id.au> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 11:57:41 +0800, Ross Herbert <rherber1(a)bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:03:24 -0400, "Martin Riddle" <martin_rid(a)verizon.net>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>:
>>>>:
>>>>:"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote
>>>>:in message news:0ok6561m4ftedj3mv5368vmm8gdc432fln(a)4ax.com...
>>>>:> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:14:05 -0700, Jim Thompson
>>>>:> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>>>>:>
>>>>:>>GM's Electric Lemon...
>>>>:>>
>>>>:>>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/opinion/30neidermeyer.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
>>>>:>>
>>>>:>> ...Jim Thompson
>>>>:>
>>>>:> Anyone have any idea how many kWh of charge is required for the
>>>>:> "electric range" of 40 miles?
>>>>:>
>>>>:> ...Jim Thompson
>>>>:
>>>>:
>>>>:From the chevy web site, it looks like ~ 13kwh.
>>>>:That's from their $1.50 a day and 12c a kwh.
>>>>:
>>>>:<http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/volt.do>
>>>>:
>>>>:But, I hear the Prius's batteries tend to become unbalance after a few
>>>>:years, and they need to be painstakenly charged and balanced.
>>>>:
>>>>:I'm not convinced yet.
>>>>
>>>>Me neither....
>>>>
>>>>All of the DIY electric vehicles I have inspected employ a cell equalisation
>>>>circuit on every lithium-ion cell in the string. I guess that would be just too
>>>>expensive for GM.
>>>
>>>Got to be done if you want best life out of the battery pack, they
>>>just need to cover warranty period? People buy on price, don't look
>>>at the cut corners manufacturers make to meet the low price demand.
>>
>>The warranty is 100K miles or 8 years. That's quite a long life to not have
>>equalization, I agree. Of course the fine print in the warranty could have
>>such a low threshold of operation that it doesn't matter. Yeah, my wife's 3+
>>year old laptop battery works, but not for a useful amount of time.
>
>But that's about the useful life for lithium? They don't last long,
>though I've not looked at lithium battery technology since about five
>years ago.

I'd think 8 years would be optimistic, at least. AIUI, they are limiting the
charge between 25% and 75%, so that may be what saves them. Or they could be
just putting off the inevitable (you can die today or die tomorrow, your
choice).

>>>Like the older new cars that one had to remove original plugs and
>>>fit grease nipples in order to perform normal maintenance? You
>>>wouldn't guess the proper part cost much more?
>>
>>Except that greasing the linkages wasn't considered "normal maintenance". They
>>were "permanently lubricated".
>
>Old car, nipples had to be fitted as part of scheduled service per the
>service manual. Was Ford that did it over here, just something struck
>me as odd, in the service manual.

Ah, the one's I'm familiar with were "permanently lubed". Some even deleted
the plugs so zerks couldn't even be refitted.

>The Landcruiser I bought new in '85 had too many, when I went to a 4WD
>driving club education session, they pointed out a couple of them and
>said "if you don't grease them, no one else will"... It's common for
>4WDs that don't go bush driving to lose their front drive train to
>neglect. Getting too OT.

Typical. GM had plugs that mechanics would skip, too.

>I'd like electric 4WD with smart power delivery to each wheel, and
>I think an electric vehicle needs aux motor for the long distance
>travel option. A battery only vehicle may as well be golf cart size
>for city driving. Or two wheels?

Unsprung weight isn't a good thing. Electric drive doesn't make getting power
to the wheels any easier.

>So much more energy held in liquid fuels compared to current battery
>technology.

That's the bottom line. I highly doubt that battery technology will ever
compete with fossil fuels for energy density.
From: Michael A. Terrell on 5 Aug 2010 00:50

John Larkin wrote:
>
> On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 11:01:04 -0400, John Ferrell
> <jferrell13(a)triad.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >I smell a business opportunity for a younger Techie.
> >
> >In a few years there will be a supply of these things around that will
> >not have a market value that exceeds the cost of a new set of
> >batteries. A replacement power system that costs less than a battery
> >set may do well.
> >
> >Watch out for new laws that may restrict such things. A niche may
> >exist under all circumstances. Any one for Steam Power? After all the
> >Stanley Steamer held speed records for a long time!
> >
>
> As someone has noted, a boiler and a steam engine can be small and
> very powerful, especially peak power. The problem is the condenser.


Too high of an ESR? ;-)
From: Grant on 5 Aug 2010 05:19
On Thu, 05 Aug 2010 00:50:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>John Larkin wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 11:01:04 -0400, John Ferrell
>> <jferrell13(a)triad.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I smell a business opportunity for a younger Techie.
>> >
>> >In a few years there will be a supply of these things around that will
>> >not have a market value that exceeds the cost of a new set of
>> >batteries. A replacement power system that costs less than a battery
>> >set may do well.
>> >
>> >Watch out for new laws that may restrict such things. A niche may
>> >exist under all circumstances. Any one for Steam Power? After all the
>> >Stanley Steamer held speed records for a long time!
>> >
>>
>> As someone has noted, a boiler and a steam engine can be small and
>> very powerful, especially peak power. The problem is the condenser.
>
>
> Too high of an ESR? ;-)

Nah, problems with the CHARGE!
From: Jim Thompson on 5 Aug 2010 10:43
On Thu, 05 Aug 2010 19:19:38 +1000, Grant <omg(a)grrr.id.au> wrote:

>On Thu, 05 Aug 2010 00:50:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>John Larkin wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 11:01:04 -0400, John Ferrell
>>> <jferrell13(a)triad.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >I smell a business opportunity for a younger Techie.
>>> >
>>> >In a few years there will be a supply of these things around that will
>>> >not have a market value that exceeds the cost of a new set of
>>> >batteries. A replacement power system that costs less than a battery
>>> >set may do well.
>>> >
>>> >Watch out for new laws that may restrict such things. A niche may
>>> >exist under all circumstances. Any one for Steam Power? After all the
>>> >Stanley Steamer held speed records for a long time!
>>> >
>>>
>>> As someone has noted, a boiler and a steam engine can be small and
>>> very powerful, especially peak power. The problem is the condenser.
>>
>>
>> Too high of an ESR? ;-)
>
>Nah, problems with the CHARGE!

GM better start worrying, as we all know (from "The Bloviator"),
charge is NOT conserved.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
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Prev: OPERATIONS AND SUPPLY MANAGEMENT 13-E JACOBS Test Bank and solution manual is available for purchase at affordable prices. Contact me at alltestbanks11[at]gmail.com to buy it today. All emails will be answered ASAP.
Next: Frigidaire refrigerator temperature control ?