Galilean transformation equations
in [Relativity]
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From: Inertial on 23 Jun 2010 22:36 "rbwinn" <rbwinn3(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:6b9b0dbb-e90a-45ed-97fd-17a814c7d2ea(a)j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... > On 23 June, 17:34, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> news:9130d384-3f1b-4690-86a8-f4931c9e47a6(a)x27g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 23 June, 07:11, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: >> >> "PD" <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> >>news:a209036c-78a9-413e-8216-0bfe54ef4884(a)q29g2000vba.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> > On Jun 22, 1:59 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> On Jun 21, 6:11 pm, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> >> >> >news:88390667-78fc-43b3-a480-43b63b45f6b2(a)s6g2000prg.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> > > On Jun 21, 5:41 pm, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: >> >> >> > >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> >> >> > >>news:c05160c7-0799-4d35-b874-08e17bd5c74e(a)40g2000pry.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> > >> > On Jun 21, 2:20 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> On Jun 17, 5:47 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> > On Jun 17, 1:06 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > On Jun 13, 8:31 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > > x'=x-vt >> >> >> > >> >> > > > y'=y >> >> >> > >> >> > > > z'=z >> >> >> > >> >> > > > t'=t >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > > Experiment shows that a clock in moving frame >> >> >> > >> >> > > > of >> >> >> > >> >> > > > reference >> >> >> > >> >> > > > S' >> >> >> > >> >> > > > is >> >> >> > >> >> > > > slower than a clock in S which shows t. According to >> >> >> > >> >> > > > theGalilean >> >> >> > >> >> > > > transformation equations, that slower clock does not >> >> >> > >> >> > > > show >> >> >> > >> >> > > > t'. >> >> >> > >> >> > > > Time >> >> >> > >> >> > > > on >> >> >> > >> >> > > > the slower clock has to be represented by some other >> >> >> > >> >> > > > variable if >> >> >> > >> >> > > > the >> >> >> > >> >> > > >Galileantransformation equations are to be used. We >> >> >> > >> >> > > >call >> >> >> > >> >> > > >time on >> >> >> > >> >> > > >the >> >> >> > >> >> > > > slow clock in S' by the variable n'. >> >> >> > >> >> > > > We can calculate time on the slow clock from >> >> >> > >> >> > > > theGalilean >> >> >> > >> >> > > > transformation equations because we know that it >> >> >> > >> >> > > > shows >> >> >> > >> >> > > > light to >> >> >> > >> >> > > > be >> >> >> > >> >> > > > traveling at 300,000 km per second in S'. Therefore, >> >> >> > >> >> > > > if >> >> >> > >> >> > > > |x'|=300,000 km/sec(n') and |x| =300,000km/sec(t), >> >> >> > >> >> > > > then >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > > cn'=ct-vt >> >> >> > >> >> > > > n'=t(1-v/c) >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > > We can now calculate orbits of satellites >> >> >> > >> >> > > > and >> >> >> > >> >> > > > planets >> >> >> > >> >> > > > without >> >> >> > >> >> > > > the problems imposed by the Lorentz equations and >> >> >> > >> >> > > > their >> >> >> > >> >> > > > length >> >> >> > >> >> > > > contraction. For instance, the speed of earth in its >> >> >> > >> >> > > > orbit >> >> >> > >> >> > > > around >> >> >> > >> >> > > > the >> >> >> > >> >> > > > sun is 29.8 km/sec. While a second of time takes >> >> >> > >> >> > > > place >> >> >> > >> >> > > > on >> >> >> > >> >> > > > earth, a >> >> >> > >> >> > > > longer time is taking place on the sun. >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > > n'(earth)=t(sun)(1-v/c) >> >> >> > >> >> > > > 1 >> >> >> > >> >> > > > sec.=t(sun)(1-29.8/300,000) >> >> >> > >> >> > > > t(sun)=1.0001 sec. >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > > Since the orbit of Mercury was the proof used >> >> >> > >> >> > > > to >> >> >> > >> >> > > > verify >> >> >> > >> >> > > > that >> >> >> > >> >> > > > Einstein's equations were better than Newton's for >> >> >> > >> >> > > > gravitation, >> >> >> > >> >> > > > we >> >> >> > >> >> > > > calculate how time on earth compares with time on >> >> >> > >> >> > > > Mercury. >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > > n'Mercury=t(sun)(1-v(Mercury)/c) >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > > n'(mercury)=1.0001sec(1-47.87 >> >> >> > >> >> > > > km/sec/ >> >> >> > >> >> > > > 300,000km/sec) >> >> >> > >> >> > > > n'(Mercury)=.99994 sec >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > > So a second on a clock on earth is .99994 >> >> >> > >> >> > > > sec >> >> >> > >> >> > > > on >> >> >> > >> >> > > > a >> >> >> > >> >> > > > clock >> >> >> > >> >> > > > on >> >> >> > >> >> > > > Mercury. The question now is where would this put >> >> >> > >> >> > > > the >> >> >> > >> >> > > > perihelion >> >> >> > >> >> > > > of >> >> >> > >> >> > > > Mercury using Newton's equations? >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > Amazing to see you back, Robert. Even more amazing to >> >> >> > >> >> > > find >> >> >> > >> >> > > that >> >> >> > >> >> > > you've >> >> >> > >> >> > > done a reset and started with the very same nonsense >> >> >> > >> >> > > you've >> >> >> > >> >> > > put >> >> >> > >> >> > > out >> >> >> > >> >> > > for years and years. I would have thought that you >> >> >> > >> >> > > would >> >> >> > >> >> > > have >> >> >> > >> >> > > learned >> >> >> > >> >> > > something. >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > So you are claiming that for clocks A and B, where B is >> >> >> > >> >> > > moving >> >> >> > >> >> > > relative to A and runs slower than A, then A is >> >> >> > >> >> > > measuring >> >> >> > >> >> > > time (as >> >> >> > >> >> > > denoted by the quantity t), but B is not measuring time >> >> >> > >> >> > > (as >> >> >> > >> >> > > denoted >> >> >> > >> >> > > by >> >> >> > >> >> > > the quantity t'). >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > The problem of course is that A is moving relative to B >> >> >> > >> >> > > and >> >> >> > >> >> > > runs >> >> >> > >> >> > > slower than B. Your conclusion consistently would be >> >> >> > >> >> > > that >> >> >> > >> >> > > B >> >> >> > >> >> > > is >> >> >> > >> >> > > measuring time but A is not. >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > Therefore, according to you, A is measuring time and >> >> >> > >> >> > > not >> >> >> > >> >> > > measuring >> >> >> > >> >> > > time, and B is measuring time and not measuring time. >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > PD >> >> >> >> > >> >> > You are confusing measurement of time with transformation >> >> >> > >> >> > of >> >> >> > >> >> > coordinates. Time can be measured about any way >> >> >> > >> >> > imaginable. >> >> >> > >> >> > Coordinates can be transformed only with t' and t.- Hide >> >> >> > >> >> > quoted >> >> >> > >> >> > text - >> >> >> >> > >> >> A time coordinate is what is *measured* in that frame, >> >> >> > >> >> Robert. >> >> >> > >> >> It >> >> >> > >> >> really does help to know what the terms mean. >> >> >> >> > >> > So how did you "measure" time, PD? With an hourglass, with >> >> >> > >> > the >> >> >> > >> > sun, >> >> >> > >> > with the moon, with a waterclock? You must have done it >> >> >> > >> > some >> >> >> > >> > way. >> >> >> >> > >> We call the thing you measure time with a 'clock'. It is >> >> >> > >> implied >> >> >> > >> (in >> >> >> > >> physics) when we talk about a general 'clock' that it is a >> >> >> > >> correctly >> >> >> > >> working >> >> >> > >> 'clock' .. ie that it correctly measures (or marks) the time >> >> >> > >> at >> >> >> > >> its >> >> >> > >> own >> >> >> > >> location in its own rest frame. so if a duration dt of time >> >> >> > >> at a >> >> >> > >> location >> >> >> > >> has elapsed, then a clock at that location will show a >> >> >> > >> duration >> >> >> > >> of >> >> >> > >> exactly >> >> >> > >> dt as well. >> >> >> >> > >> This is very very simple and basic stuff. >> >> >> >> > > Uh huh. So what about the marks on S and S'? They are not a >> >> >> > > clock >> >> >> > > any more? That did not last long. >> >> >> >> > I said nothing about those marks. You havea great deal of >> >> >> > trouble >> >> >> > reading >> >> >> > and understanding .. that explains a lot. >> >> >> >> > However .. on the subject of such marks .. marks alone are not a >> >> >> > clock >> >> >> > (they >> >> >> > are a ruler) .. you would also need something moving past those >> >> >> > marks >> >> >> > at a >> >> >> > known rate, from that you can calculate the time. If you have >> >> >> > correctly >> >> >> > measured distances between the marks (ie measured from a >> >> >> > mutually-at-rest >> >> >> > observer .. ie the marks are not moving wrt the observer) and >> >> >> > have >> >> >> > correctly >> >> >> > measured the speed of the moving object, then clock will work and >> >> >> > be >> >> >> > correct. >> >> >> >> > This does NOT change the fact thegalileantransforms are proven >> >> >> > incorrect >> >> >> > by experiments that show correctly working clocks do NOT show the >> >> >> > same >> >> >> > time >> >> >> > when those clocks are in relative motion. >> >> >> >> Well, I was just measuring time with the marks. The marks are ten >> >> >> meters apart on both S and S'. >> >> >> > No, they're not. That is a claim that is inconsistent with real >> >> > *measurement*, Robert. >> >> >> No .. he's ok on that one, as he is referring to two DIFFERENT sets of >> >> marks. >> >> >> The marks at rest in S are 10m apart in S >> >> >> The marks at rest in S' are 10m apart in S' >> >> >> If that is what he is saying, that's fine >> >> >> If he says the BOTH sets of marks are 10m apart in BOTH frames, then >> >> he >> >> is >> >> wrong >> >> >> >> Now scientists claim to have two >> >> >> separate realities with respect to the marks on S and S'. An >> >> >> observer >> >> >> in S sees the marks on S' closer together than the marks on S. An >> >> >> observer in S' sees the marks on S closer together than the marks >> >> >> on >> >> >> S'. An observer in reality sees the marks on S and S' the same >> >> >> distance apart. >> >> >> > No, Robert. Reality is set by what is *measured*. And *measurement* >> >> > says that the marks in S and S' are not the same distance apart. >> >> >> >> So we have a difference between reality and science. >> >> >> Continuing on with reality, t'=t. Hey, what do you know? >> >> >> That is the equation for time coordinates in theGalilean >> >> >> transformation equations.- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> - Show quoted text - >> >> > I say they remain the same distance apart whether S' is moving at 1 m/ >> > yr relative to S or it is moving at .99999c. >> >> Then you are wrong. That then would not give you a different in clock >> rates >> that we know happens. > > We are not talking about clock rates. Wrong .. you are using those marks to make clocks. > We are talking about movement > of S' relative to S. And what we find happens experimentally is NOT explained by Galilean transforms. This is a fact. You claiming otherwise is a lie. Simple.
From: Inertial on 23 Jun 2010 22:37 "rbwinn" <rbwinn3(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:2b2812e0-ce59-41c7-bd7b-c9faaecd4eab(a)i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com... > On 23 June, 17:33, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> news:819687c3-593e-45a4-a705-0005da870e4e(a)z10g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 21 June, 18:11, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: >> >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> >>news:88390667-78fc-43b3-a480-43b63b45f6b2(a)s6g2000prg.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> > On Jun 21, 5:41 pm, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: >> >> >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> >> >>news:c05160c7-0799-4d35-b874-08e17bd5c74e(a)40g2000pry.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> > On Jun 21, 2:20 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Jun 17, 5:47 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > On Jun 17, 1:06 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > On Jun 13, 8:31 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > x'=x-vt >> >> >> >> > > > y'=y >> >> >> >> > > > z'=z >> >> >> >> > > > t'=t >> >> >> >> >> > > > Experiment shows that a clock in moving frame of >> >> >> >> > > > reference >> >> >> >> > > > S' >> >> >> >> > > > is >> >> >> >> > > > slower than a clock in S which shows t. According to >> >> >> >> > > > theGalilean >> >> >> >> > > > transformation equations, that slower clock does not show >> >> >> >> > > > t'. >> >> >> >> > > > Time >> >> >> >> > > > on >> >> >> >> > > > the slower clock has to be represented by some other >> >> >> >> > > > variable >> >> >> >> > > > if >> >> >> >> > > > the >> >> >> >> > > >Galileantransformation equations are to be used. We call >> >> >> >> > > >time >> >> >> >> > > >on >> >> >> >> > > >the >> >> >> >> > > > slow clock in S' by the variable n'. >> >> >> >> > > > We can calculate time on the slow clock from theGalilean >> >> >> >> > > > transformation equations because we know that it shows >> >> >> >> > > > light >> >> >> >> > > > to >> >> >> >> > > > be >> >> >> >> > > > traveling at 300,000 km per second in S'. Therefore, if >> >> >> >> > > > |x'|=300,000 km/sec(n') and |x| =300,000km/sec(t), then >> >> >> >> >> > > > cn'=ct-vt >> >> >> >> > > > n'=t(1-v/c) >> >> >> >> >> > > > We can now calculate orbits of satellites and >> >> >> >> > > > planets >> >> >> >> > > > without >> >> >> >> > > > the problems imposed by the Lorentz equations and their >> >> >> >> > > > length >> >> >> >> > > > contraction. For instance, the speed of earth in its >> >> >> >> > > > orbit >> >> >> >> > > > around >> >> >> >> > > > the >> >> >> >> > > > sun is 29.8 km/sec. While a second of time takes place on >> >> >> >> > > > earth, a >> >> >> >> > > > longer time is taking place on the sun. >> >> >> >> >> > > > n'(earth)=t(sun)(1-v/c) >> >> >> >> > > > 1 sec.=t(sun)(1-29.8/300,000) >> >> >> >> > > > t(sun)=1.0001 sec. >> >> >> >> >> > > > Since the orbit of Mercury was the proof used to >> >> >> >> > > > verify >> >> >> >> > > > that >> >> >> >> > > > Einstein's equations were better than Newton's for >> >> >> >> > > > gravitation, >> >> >> >> > > > we >> >> >> >> > > > calculate how time on earth compares with time on Mercury. >> >> >> >> >> > > > n'Mercury=t(sun)(1-v(Mercury)/c) >> >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > n'(mercury)=1.0001sec(1-47.87 >> >> >> >> > > > km/sec/ >> >> >> >> > > > 300,000km/sec) >> >> >> >> > > > n'(Mercury)=.99994 sec >> >> >> >> >> > > > So a second on a clock on earth is .99994 sec on >> >> >> >> > > > a >> >> >> >> > > > clock >> >> >> >> > > > on >> >> >> >> > > > Mercury. The question now is where would this put the >> >> >> >> > > > perihelion >> >> >> >> > > > of >> >> >> >> > > > Mercury using Newton's equations? >> >> >> >> >> > > Amazing to see you back, Robert. Even more amazing to find >> >> >> >> > > that >> >> >> >> > > you've >> >> >> >> > > done a reset and started with the very same nonsense you've >> >> >> >> > > put >> >> >> >> > > out >> >> >> >> > > for years and years. I would have thought that you would >> >> >> >> > > have >> >> >> >> > > learned >> >> >> >> > > something. >> >> >> >> >> > > So you are claiming that for clocks A and B, where B is >> >> >> >> > > moving >> >> >> >> > > relative to A and runs slower than A, then A is measuring >> >> >> >> > > time >> >> >> >> > > (as >> >> >> >> > > denoted by the quantity t), but B is not measuring time (as >> >> >> >> > > denoted >> >> >> >> > > by >> >> >> >> > > the quantity t'). >> >> >> >> >> > > The problem of course is that A is moving relative to B and >> >> >> >> > > runs >> >> >> >> > > slower than B. Your conclusion consistently would be that B >> >> >> >> > > is >> >> >> >> > > measuring time but A is not. >> >> >> >> >> > > Therefore, according to you, A is measuring time and not >> >> >> >> > > measuring >> >> >> >> > > time, and B is measuring time and not measuring time. >> >> >> >> >> > > PD >> >> >> >> >> > You are confusing measurement of time with transformation of >> >> >> >> > coordinates. Time can be measured about any way imaginable. >> >> >> >> > Coordinates can be transformed only with t' and t.- Hide >> >> >> >> > quoted >> >> >> >> > text - >> >> >> >> >> A time coordinate is what is *measured* in that frame, Robert. >> >> >> >> It >> >> >> >> really does help to know what the terms mean. >> >> >> >> > So how did you "measure" time, PD? With an hourglass, with the >> >> >> > sun, >> >> >> > with the moon, with a waterclock? You must have done it some >> >> >> > way. >> >> >> >> We call the thing you measure time with a 'clock'. It is implied >> >> >> (in >> >> >> physics) when we talk about a general 'clock' that it is a >> >> >> correctly >> >> >> working >> >> >> 'clock' .. ie that it correctly measures (or marks) the time at its >> >> >> own >> >> >> location in its own rest frame. so if a duration dt of time at a >> >> >> location >> >> >> has elapsed, then a clock at that location will show a duration of >> >> >> exactly >> >> >> dt as well. >> >> >> >> This is very very simple and basic stuff. >> >> >> > Uh huh. So what about the marks on S and S'? They are not a clock >> >> > any more? That did not last long. >> >> >> I said nothing about those marks. You havea great deal of trouble >> >> reading >> >> and understanding .. that explains a lot. >> >> >> However .. on the subject of such marks .. marks alone are not a clock >> >> (they >> >> are a ruler) .. you would also need something moving past those marks >> >> at >> >> a >> >> known rate, from that you can calculate the time. If you have >> >> correctly >> >> measured distances between the marks (ie measured from a >> >> mutually-at-rest >> >> observer .. ie the marks are not moving wrt the observer) and have >> >> correctly >> >> measured the speed of the moving object, then clock will work and be >> >> correct. >> >> >> This does NOT change the fact thegalileantransforms are proven >> >> incorrect >> >> by experiments that show correctly working clocks do NOT show the same >> >> time >> >> when those clocks are in relative motion. >> >> > Well, theGalileantransformation equations I use are not proven >> > incorrect. >> >> Yes .. they are. >> >> > They account for the difference in rate of time between a >> > clock in S and A clock in S'. >> >> No .. they don't. If they DO then they are NOTGalileantransforms. How >> about a bit of honesty from you here .. and admit you are using a >> different >> transform togalilean. > > Well, show the difference between these equations and the Galilean > transformation equations. > > x'=x-vt > y'=y > z'=z > t'=t They are not the ones you use. You post them .. but you don't use them. You use your own equaition instead and then try to cheat by using a different letter for time (n instead of t).
From: Inertial on 23 Jun 2010 22:40 "rbwinn" <rbwinn3(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:3de79bbe-3e03-4adf-a4f9-e425dfa8754e(a)b35g2000yqi.googlegroups.com... > On 23 June, 18:21, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> news:bdf2fac8-9ead-4341-b213-bcaba14a5541(a)r27g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... >> >> > On 22 June, 21:36, "whoever" <whoe...(a)whereever.com> wrote: >> >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> >>news:af6283d7-12a6-418b-9863-4e68e773fcd0(a)i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> > On Jun 22, 6:18 pm, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: >> >> >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> >> >>news:e430c702-c02c-4b28-ba75-14d58df5ee75(a)k39g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> > On 22 June, 13:59, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Jun 21, 7:24 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > On Jun 21, 2:20 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > On Jun 17, 5:47 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > On Jun 17, 1:06 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > On Jun 13, 8:31 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > x'=x-vt >> >> >> >> > > > > > y'=y >> >> >> >> > > > > > z'=z >> >> >> >> > > > > > t'=t >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > Experiment shows that a clock in moving frame of >> >> >> >> > > > > > reference S' is >> >> >> >> > > > > > slower than a clock in S which shows t. According to >> >> >> >> > > > > > theGalilean >> >> >> >> > > > > > transformation equations, that slower clock does not >> >> >> >> > > > > > show >> >> >> >> > > > > > t'. >> >> >> >> > > > > > Time on >> >> >> >> > > > > > the slower clock has to be represented by some other >> >> >> >> > > > > > variable >> >> >> >> > > > > > if the >> >> >> >> > > > > >Galileantransformation equations are to be used. We >> >> >> >> > > > > >call >> >> >> >> > > > > >time >> >> >> >> > > > > >on the >> >> >> >> > > > > > slow clock in S' by the variable n'. >> >> >> >> > > > > > We can calculate time on the slow clock from >> >> >> >> > > > > > theGalilean >> >> >> >> > > > > > transformation equations because we know that it shows >> >> >> >> > > > > > light >> >> >> >> > > > > > to >> >> >> >> > > > > > be >> >> >> >> > > > > > traveling at 300,000 km per second in S'. Therefore, >> >> >> >> > > > > > if >> >> >> >> > > > > > |x'|=300,000 km/sec(n') and |x| =300,000km/sec(t), >> >> >> >> > > > > > then >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > cn'=ct-vt >> >> >> >> > > > > > n'=t(1-v/c) >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > We can now calculate orbits of satellites and >> >> >> >> > > > > > planets >> >> >> >> > > > > > without >> >> >> >> > > > > > the problems imposed by the Lorentz equations and >> >> >> >> > > > > > their >> >> >> >> > > > > > length >> >> >> >> > > > > > contraction. For instance, the speed of earth in its >> >> >> >> > > > > > orbit >> >> >> >> > > > > > around the >> >> >> >> > > > > > sun is 29.8 km/sec. While a second of time takes >> >> >> >> > > > > > place >> >> >> >> > > > > > on >> >> >> >> > > > > > earth, a >> >> >> >> > > > > > longer time is taking place on the sun. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > n'(earth)=t(sun)(1-v/c) >> >> >> >> > > > > > 1 >> >> >> >> > > > > > sec.=t(sun)(1-29.8/300,000) >> >> >> >> > > > > > t(sun)=1.0001 sec. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > Since the orbit of Mercury was the proof used >> >> >> >> > > > > > to >> >> >> >> > > > > > verify >> >> >> >> > > > > > that >> >> >> >> > > > > > Einstein's equations were better than Newton's for >> >> >> >> > > > > > gravitation, >> >> >> >> > > > > > we >> >> >> >> > > > > > calculate how time on earth compares with time on >> >> >> >> > > > > > Mercury. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > n'Mercury=t(sun)(1-v(Mercury)/c) >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > n'(mercury)=1.0001sec(1-47.87 >> >> >> >> > > > > > km/sec/ >> >> >> >> > > > > > 300,000km/sec) >> >> >> >> > > > > > n'(Mercury)=.99994 sec >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > So a second on a clock on earth is .99994 >> >> >> >> > > > > > sec >> >> >> >> > > > > > on a >> >> >> >> > > > > > clock on >> >> >> >> > > > > > Mercury. The question now is where would this put the >> >> >> >> > > > > > perihelion of >> >> >> >> > > > > > Mercury using Newton's equations? >> >> >> >> >> > > > > Amazing to see you back, Robert. Even more amazing to >> >> >> >> > > > > find >> >> >> >> > > > > that >> >> >> >> > > > > you've >> >> >> >> > > > > done a reset and started with the very same nonsense >> >> >> >> > > > > you've >> >> >> >> > > > > put >> >> >> >> > > > > out >> >> >> >> > > > > for years and years. I would have thought that you would >> >> >> >> > > > > have >> >> >> >> > > > > learned >> >> >> >> > > > > something. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > So you are claiming that for clocks A and B, where B is >> >> >> >> > > > > moving >> >> >> >> > > > > relative to A and runs slower than A, then A is >> >> >> >> > > > > measuring >> >> >> >> > > > > time >> >> >> >> > > > > (as >> >> >> >> > > > > denoted by the quantity t), but B is not measuring time >> >> >> >> > > > > (as >> >> >> >> > > > > denoted by >> >> >> >> > > > > the quantity t'). >> >> >> >> >> > > > > The problem of course is that A is moving relative to B >> >> >> >> > > > > and >> >> >> >> > > > > runs >> >> >> >> > > > > slower than B. Your conclusion consistently would be >> >> >> >> > > > > that B >> >> >> >> > > > > is >> >> >> >> > > > > measuring time but A is not. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > Therefore, according to you, A is measuring time and not >> >> >> >> > > > > measuring >> >> >> >> > > > > time, and B is measuring time and not measuring time. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > PD >> >> >> >> >> > > > You are confusing measurement of time with transformation >> >> >> >> > > > of >> >> >> >> > > > coordinates. Time can be measured about any way >> >> >> >> > > > imaginable. >> >> >> >> > > > Coordinates can be transformed only with t' and t.- Hide >> >> >> >> > > > quoted >> >> >> >> > > > text - >> >> >> >> >> > > A time coordinate is what is *measured* in that frame, >> >> >> >> > > Robert. >> >> >> >> > > It >> >> >> >> > > really does help to know what the terms mean. >> >> >> >> >> > So how did you "measure" time, PD? With an hourglass, with >> >> >> >> > the >> >> >> >> > sun, >> >> >> >> > with the moon, with a waterclock? You must have done it some >> >> >> >> > way.- >> >> >> >> > Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> It depends on what kind of precision I'm looking for, Robert. >> >> >> >> A wristwatch is fine for some things. >> >> >> >> A TDC is better for some other things. >> >> >> >> >> If you have a decent clock and you measure processes *at rest* >> >> >> >> relative to the clock, you'll find that there is a consistent >> >> >> >> result >> >> >> >> in most cases. If there are uncontrolled factors, this may >> >> >> >> affect >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> quality of your results. >> >> >> >> >> What is known, though, is if you measure the processes with a >> >> >> >> clock >> >> >> >> that is *moving* relative to the process, you may notice a shift >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> the duration of the process. The "may" depends on the >> >> >> >> sensitivity >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> your clock. >> >> >> >> > Well, scientists studying relativity seem to have about a million >> >> >> > ways >> >> >> > to adjust results to get whatever answer they are trying to get. >> >> >> >> Wrong >> >> >> >> > With >> >> >> > regard to time, I have to say they have been flim-flamming the >> >> >> > public >> >> >> > since Einstein gave them a way to do it in 1905. >> >> >> >> Wrong >> >> >> >> > You probably claim there have been great advances in science. >> >> >> > I >> >> >> > don't really see it. >> >> >> >> That you don't see something is not a surprise >> >> >> >> [snip irrelevant nonsense] >> >> >> >> > Scientists of today cannot explain the length contraction, >> >> >> >> Wrong >> >> >> >> > but >> >> >> > their faith in it is absolute because it is the source of all >> >> >> > good >> >> >> > things, (money), in their lives. >> >> >> >> Wrong >> >> >> >> > All I have to do to provoke an outcry is to post in >> >> >> > sci.physics >> >> >> > relativity that there is no length contraction, and scientists >> >> >> > will >> >> >> > start screaming, Blasphemy, blasphemy. >> >> >> >> No .. they'll just tell you that your logic is wrong. What you >> >> >> claim >> >> >> to >> >> >> be >> >> >> the case is refuted by experimental evidence. It is simply wrong >> >> >> >> > Now here is something interesting. TheGalileantransformation >> >> >> > equations do not show a length contraction. >> >> >> >> More to the point, they do NOT show time dilation .. and we observe >> >> >> that >> >> >> happening. So they are wrong. >> >> >> >> You are flogging a dead horse. . and have been for years >> >> >> > Well, I do not flog horses. I don't need to. Generally, I walk >> >> > wherever I go. One thing is obvious to me, scientists are >> >> > perpetrating a flim-flam. >> >> >> Then you are deluded. >> >> >> > So I give them an example, easy to >> >> > understand, marks every ten meters on S and marks every ten meters >> >> > on >> >> > S', and they pretend they do not understand how that could be. >> >> >> Nothing wrong with that .. its called a pair of rulers >> >> >> > Well, >> >> > OK, show the mathematics that you do not understand. >> >> >> I do understand it. You don't >> >> >> > t'=t. >> >> >> But it doesn't .. because experiment shows that time for a moving >> >> object >> >> is >> >> measured as slower >> >> >> > You have failed to show any proof whatsoever that this equation >> >> > applies to anything other than the marks on S and S'. >> >> >> It doesn't apply to marks. It applies to time. And it is proven >> >> wrong. >> >> >> > It means that >> >> > the marks on S are the same distance apart as the marks on S'. >> >> >> The marks in S are 10m apart in S and the marks in S' are 10m apart in >> >> S'. >> >> >> That does not mean that an S observer would measure the moving marks >> >> in >> >> S' >> >> as being 10m apart, or vice versa. >> >> >> Galileantransforms say they would, Lorentz transforms say they do not. >> >> >> Galileantransforms also say that differently moving clocks will by >> >> measured >> >> as ticking at the same rate, Lorentz transforms say they do not. >> >> Experiment >> >> confirms the Lorentz prediction. Galillean transforms are refuted. >> >> >> > When >> >> > S' moves relative to S, the marks line up with each other the entire >> >> > lengths of S and S' every time the moving frame of reference moves >> >> > 10 >> >> > m. >> >> >> Nope. That is whatGalileantransforms say, and very close to what >> >> Lorentz >> >> transforms predict at low speeds. >> >> >> > This is true when S' is moving at 1 m. /yr. and it is true when S' >> >> > is moving at .99999c. >> >> >> Nope. Its not true in either. The difference though is whether you >> >> can >> >> measure the difference accurately enough to tell. >> >> >> > You have no mathematics that shows otherwise >> >> >> Wrong. Lorentz transforms predict what we see experimentally >> >> perfectly. >> >> They give constant speed of light and they give time dilation as we >> >> observe.Galileantransforms do not. >> >> >> > because you have a time dilation that shows too much time on a clock >> >> > in S', and consequently you have to compensate by saying there is a >> >> > length contraction. >> >> >> There is a length contraction and a time dilation. >> >> >> > Sorry, t'=t means there is no length >> >> > contraction. >> >> >> Wrong. It means that the time (and so rates of clocks) is the same .. >> >> it >> >> doesn't say anything about lengths. >> >> >> > All you have is a slow clock in S'. >> >> >> No .. the clocks in S' is just as correct as the one in S >> >> >> Your score is getting worse .. a big fat ZERO score on that one. Try >> >> posting some more lies and nonsense .. I'm sure you will. >> >> >> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: n...(a)netfront.net --- >> >> > Well, anyone who is as committed to believing a fairy tale as you are >> > should be allowed to believe it. >> >> Liar >> >> > Here is the way I work the >> > problem. >> >> > x'=x-vt >> > y'=y >> > z'=Z >> > t'=t >> >> > The last equation shows how time coordinates are transformed in >> > theGalileantransformation equations. >> >> There is no change in time due to motion or position .. so all correctly >> working clocks will alwyas show the same tiem >> >> This is REFUTED by experiment >> >> > The marks on S' align with the >> > marks on S the entire lengths of S and S'. That means that when one >> > mark in S aligns with a mark in S', they all do. This happens >> > whenever the marks pass one another, whatever the velocity of S' >> > relative to S. If a clock in S shows t, it also shows t' because >> > t'=t in theGalileantransformation equations. >> >> Yeup .. and we know that correctly working clocks are affected by >> relative >> motion .. So the above is REFUTED >> >> > Scientists tell us that a clock in S' is slower than a clock in >> > S. Time on that clock cannot be t' because t' is already defined to >> > be t, the time on a clock in S. So we call time on the slower clock >> > in S' by n'. >> >> WRONG it is CORRECT clocks that work differently. Not malfunctioning >> ones >> >> [snip nonsense from rbwinn lies] > > If time on correct clocks is slower than t, then it is slower than t' > because t'=t. Wrong. A correct clock at rest in S shows time t .. by DEFINTION A correct clock at rest in S' shows time t' .. by DEFINITION. So a correct clock at rest in in S cannot by slower then t and a correct clock at rest in S' cannot by slower than t'. HOWEVER, what we find is that a correct clock at rest in S, that shows t', runs slower than t. So we lets use T' as the clock time shown on a correct clock in S' T' = t ... which says the clock shows the correct time in S'.. s it is a correct clock T' <> t .. which is what we observer, the clock runs slow so t' <> t .. therefore Galilean transforms wrong
From: PD on 24 Jun 2010 10:19 On Jun 23, 7:39 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 23 June, 07:01, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Well, I do not flog horses. I don't need to. Generally, I walk > > > wherever I go. One thing is obvious to me, scientists are > > > perpetrating a flim-flam. So I give them an example, easy to > > > understand, marks every ten meters on S and marks every ten meters on > > > S', and they pretend they do not understand how that could be. > > > Oh, it COULD be, Robert. Except it isn't so in reality. Measurement > > shows this. > > > Well, there is the difference between science and reality. Reality is > more than a flim-flam. > It actually exists. Measurement reveals what exists, Robert, not your head. You rely too much on your head and are too suspicious of measurements. This is how you lose touch with reality. PD
From: PD on 24 Jun 2010 10:24
On Jun 23, 7:43 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 23 June, 06:59, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 22, 7:38 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 22 June, 13:59, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 21, 7:24 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 21, 2:20 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 5:47 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 1:06 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Jun 13, 8:31 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > x'=x-vt > > > > > > > > > y'=y > > > > > > > > > z'=z > > > > > > > > > t'=t > > > > > > > > > > Experiment shows that a clock in moving frame of reference S' is > > > > > > > > > slower than a clock in S which shows t. According to theGalilean > > > > > > > > > transformation equations, that slower clock does not show t'. Time on > > > > > > > > > the slower clock has to be represented by some other variable if the > > > > > > > > >Galileantransformation equations are to be used. We call time on the > > > > > > > > > slow clock in S' by the variable n'. > > > > > > > > > We can calculate time on the slow clock from theGalilean > > > > > > > > > transformation equations because we know that it shows light to be > > > > > > > > > traveling at 300,000 km per second in S'. Therefore, if > > > > > > > > > |x'|=300,000 km/sec(n') and |x| =300,000km/sec(t), then > > > > > > > > > > cn'=ct-vt > > > > > > > > > n'=t(1-v/c) > > > > > > > > > > We can now calculate orbits of satellites and planets without > > > > > > > > > the problems imposed by the Lorentz equations and their length > > > > > > > > > contraction. For instance, the speed of earth in its orbit around the > > > > > > > > > sun is 29.8 km/sec. While a second of time takes place on earth, a > > > > > > > > > longer time is taking place on the sun. > > > > > > > > > > n'(earth)=t(sun)(1-v/c) > > > > > > > > > 1 sec.=t(sun)(1-29.8/300,000) > > > > > > > > > t(sun)=1.0001 sec. > > > > > > > > > > Since the orbit of Mercury was the proof used to verify that > > > > > > > > > Einstein's equations were better than Newton's for gravitation, we > > > > > > > > > calculate how time on earth compares with time on Mercury.. > > > > > > > > > > n'Mercury=t(sun)(1-v(Mercury)/c) > > > > > > > > > n'(mercury)=1.0001sec(1-47.87 km/sec/ > > > > > > > > > 300,000km/sec) > > > > > > > > > n'(Mercury)=.99994 sec > > > > > > > > > > So a second on a clock on earth is .99994 sec on a clock on > > > > > > > > > Mercury. The question now is where would this put the perihelion of > > > > > > > > > Mercury using Newton's equations? > > > > > > > > > Amazing to see you back, Robert. Even more amazing to find that you've > > > > > > > > done a reset and started with the very same nonsense you've put out > > > > > > > > for years and years. I would have thought that you would have learned > > > > > > > > something. > > > > > > > > > So you are claiming that for clocks A and B, where B is moving > > > > > > > > relative to A and runs slower than A, then A is measuring time (as > > > > > > > > denoted by the quantity t), but B is not measuring time (as denoted by > > > > > > > > the quantity t'). > > > > > > > > > The problem of course is that A is moving relative to B and runs > > > > > > > > slower than B. Your conclusion consistently would be that B is > > > > > > > > measuring time but A is not. > > > > > > > > > Therefore, according to you, A is measuring time and not measuring > > > > > > > > time, and B is measuring time and not measuring time. > > > > > > > > > PD > > > > > > > > You are confusing measurement of time with transformation of > > > > > > > coordinates. Time can be measured about any way imaginable.. > > > > > > > Coordinates can be transformed only with t' and t.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > A time coordinate is what is *measured* in that frame, Robert. It > > > > > > really does help to know what the terms mean. > > > > > > So how did you "measure" time, PD? With an hourglass, with the sun, > > > > > with the moon, with a waterclock? You must have done it some way.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > It depends on what kind of precision I'm looking for, Robert. > > > > A wristwatch is fine for some things. > > > > A TDC is better for some other things. > > > > > If you have a decent clock and you measure processes *at rest* > > > > relative to the clock, you'll find that there is a consistent result > > > > in most cases. If there are uncontrolled factors, this may affect the > > > > quality of your results. > > > > > What is known, though, is if you measure the processes with a clock > > > > that is *moving* relative to the process, you may notice a shift in > > > > the duration of the process. The "may" depends on the sensitivity of > > > > your clock. > > > > Well, scientists studying relativity seem to have about a million ways > > > to adjust results to get whatever answer they are trying to get. With > > > regard to time, I have to say they have been flim-flamming the public > > > since Einstein gave them a way to do it in 1905. > > > Well, here's the thing, Robert. The measurements are very > > straightforward. You measure distances with sticks with marks on them > > or with surveying instruments. You measure time with clocks. If you > > make those measurements, you find that they do exactly what Einstein > > says you'll see. > > > Now, some people will look at what they see with their own eyes, and > > they'll say, "OK, I guess that shows I was wrong." Other people will > > regard the results with suspicion and say, "You've tricked me somehow. > > I don't know how you did it, but this can't be right. I don't trust > > you or any of your kind, and I'm sick and tired of people like you > > trying to pull the wool over my eyes." > > > I think it's pretty clear what kind of person you are, Robert. > > > > You probably claim there have been great advances in science. I > > > don't really see it. To start their present flim-flam, they got > > > millions of dollars from the U.S government to construct a bomb during > > > World War II, which they ran up to 2 billion dollars by the end of the > > > war. For that kind of money, they were happy to take one kind of > > > radioactive substance, put it into a cannon and shoot it into another > > > kind of radioactive substance. Scientists all over the world had > > > speculated that this could be done even before the war started. > > > So by doing this, they created the greatest man made explosion > > > witnessed up to that time, and it was all done by believing in a > > > length contraction. So that proves to scientists that there is a > > > length contraction, especially when they can get trillions of more > > > dollars from governments by saying there is a length contraction. > > > Scientists of today cannot explain the length contraction, > > > Of course they can, and they've explained it tens of thousands of > > people to their satisfaction. Perhaps you meant to say that you've not > > had length contraction explained to you to your satisfaction. This > > doesn't surprise me, Robert, as you are not satisfied with just about > > everything. > > > > but > > > their faith in it is absolute because it is the source of all good > > > things, (money), in their lives. > > > All I have to do to provoke an outcry is to post in sci.physics > > > relativity that there is no length contraction, and scientists will > > > start screaming, Blasphemy, blasphemy. > > > I think you confuse, Robert, scientists screaming blasphemy with > > scientists quietly chuckling and remarking that you're an idiot. I > > think you've puffed yourself up a little too much, thinking that > > you've had any gadfly influence at all. Even a street clown will > > attract a crowd, Robert; this doesn't mean that the street clown is > > anything other than a clown. > > > > Now here is something interesting. TheGalileantransformation > > > equations do not show a length contraction. > > > Of course they don't, Robert. That's one reason they're wrong. They > > disagree with what's actually measured. > > They agree when I use them. I just use t'=t in two frames of > reference, not to explain the entire universe.- Hide quoted text - They agree within the precision of the measurements you make. That's because the Galilean transformation are an excellent *approximation* to the real thing, especially at the low speeds that welders like to work with. As I told you before, Robert, feel free to use the Galilean transforms if they work for you and your needs. Physicists, on the other hand, sometimes work in domains where the Galilean transforms don't work well at all, because they don't always agree with measurments. It's in those cases that they're more careful, where you're happy to be simple and sloppy. PD |