Greeks invented logic?
in [Design]
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From: Spehro Pefhany on 9 May 2010 13:19 On Sun, 09 May 2010 08:36:28 -0700, the renowned John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >On Fri, 07 May 2010 13:14:33 +0300, GM <nospam(a)please.com> wrote: > >>John Larkin wrote: >>> >>> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ai35iM38zN08 >>> >>> >>> Insane. Everybody in Greece will go on strike to punish... who? >>> >>> John >>> >>> >> >>What is the best solution? >> >>1. Default now with $300 bn internal & external debt and renegotiate the >>debt payment >> >>2. Take the IMF loan, put as a guarantee greek public properties (from >>oil resources to Acropolis to greek islands), smash the middle class, >>destroy the private sector (the major measure against the private sector >>are going to be voted in September) and then after 3 years default with >>a $500+ bn internal & external debt and let the german government take >>everything including the ones that it couldn't take even in WWII >> >>As a greek I choose number 1. Pure aristotelian logic... >> >>Regards >>Georgios M > >This is interesting, > >http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/08/world/europe/08europe.html > >especially Merkel's wonderful line �a battle of the politicians >against the markets... I am determined to win.� Wow. > >If, as you suggest, Greece were just to disavow the debt, what's to >keep the crisis from reappearing, much worse, in a few years time? The >southern european countries can't keep consuming more than they >produce; Germany and France will get tired of paying for it. Are you getting tired of getting $0.78 of Fed spending for every $1 in Fed tax, while North Dakota gets $1.68? (2005 numbers). Of course these days probably every state gets $2-$4 in war+ecomonmic stimulus Federal spending for every dollar of tax, so everyone should be happy. >In Greece one-third of all workers are employed by the government. > >John And they apparently have an active Communist party, with a couple dozen seats in the Parliament (less than 10%). Socialism is probably centrist there, at best. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff(a)interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
From: John Larkin on 9 May 2010 13:43 On Sun, 09 May 2010 13:19:38 -0400, Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP(a)interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: >On Sun, 09 May 2010 08:36:28 -0700, the renowned John Larkin ><jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > >>On Fri, 07 May 2010 13:14:33 +0300, GM <nospam(a)please.com> wrote: >> >>>John Larkin wrote: >>>> >>>> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ai35iM38zN08 >>>> >>>> >>>> Insane. Everybody in Greece will go on strike to punish... who? >>>> >>>> John >>>> >>>> >>> >>>What is the best solution? >>> >>>1. Default now with $300 bn internal & external debt and renegotiate the >>>debt payment >>> >>>2. Take the IMF loan, put as a guarantee greek public properties (from >>>oil resources to Acropolis to greek islands), smash the middle class, >>>destroy the private sector (the major measure against the private sector >>>are going to be voted in September) and then after 3 years default with >>>a $500+ bn internal & external debt and let the german government take >>>everything including the ones that it couldn't take even in WWII >>> >>>As a greek I choose number 1. Pure aristotelian logic... >>> >>>Regards >>>Georgios M >> >>This is interesting, >> >>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/08/world/europe/08europe.html >> >>especially Merkel's wonderful line �a battle of the politicians >>against the markets... I am determined to win.� Wow. >> >>If, as you suggest, Greece were just to disavow the debt, what's to >>keep the crisis from reappearing, much worse, in a few years time? The >>southern european countries can't keep consuming more than they >>produce; Germany and France will get tired of paying for it. > >Are you getting tired of getting $0.78 of Fed spending for every $1 in >Fed tax, while North Dakota gets $1.68? (2005 numbers). North Dakota is pretty small, so that's no big deal. Some states are poor, like Mississippi, so it would figure that they might get more benefits than they pay in taxes. What Greece apparently did was borrow heavily on their own account, spend the money, hide the borrowing, and ratchet down productivity. > >Of course these days probably every state gets $2-$4 in war+ecomonmic >stimulus Federal spending for every dollar of tax, so everyone should >be happy. It's just borrowing to spend and consume; Federal money is our money. It's inherently inefficient and not sustainable, as the european situation isn't sustainable. Macroeconomic blather can't hide the basics: you can't longterm consume more than you make unless you can find someone to steal from. The problem worldwide is: too much government. The next 10-15 years should be interesting, as the steady growth of governments collides with reality. That intersection is happening a lot sooner in Greece, and they will have to deal with reduced expectations... and they don't seem very happy about that. John
From: dagmargoodboat on 9 May 2010 17:42 On May 9, 10:36 am, John Larkin <jjlar...(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > On Fri, 07 May 2010 13:14:33 +0300, GM <nos...(a)please.com> wrote: > >John Larkin wrote: > > >>http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ai35iM38zN08 > > >> Insane. Everybody in Greece will go on strike to punish... who? > > >> John > > >What is the best solution? > > >1. Default now with $300 bn internal & external debt and renegotiate the > >debt payment > > >2. Take the IMF loan, put as a guarantee greek public properties (from > >oil resources to Acropolis to greek islands), smash the middle class, > >destroy the private sector (the major measure against the private sector > >are going to be voted in September) and then after 3 years default with > >a $500+ bn internal & external debt and let the german government take > >everything including the ones that it couldn't take even in WWII > > >As a greek I choose number 1. Pure aristotelian logic... > > >Regards > >Georgios M > > This is interesting, > > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/08/world/europe/08europe.html > > especially Merkel's wonderful line a battle of the politicians > against the markets... I am determined to win. Wow. It's perverse--the writer, and those politicians all have no idea, only the conviction that loaning money will fix it. So, to lift them out of debt, the EU's making Greece (another) subprime loan. It won't work, of course. That just puts Greece further in debt. Chance of success = zero. AFAICT Greece should default--that's in their interest--and renegotiate terms. And, the people who loaned them money will and should lose it--part, or all. That's the chance you take in loaning money to someone you shouldn't. Maybe in the future you'll think twice. Greece's problem is their economic theory doesn't produce the benefits they promise--it's hard to make people richer with their own money; redistribution is a less-than-zero sum game. So they borrow to substitute the illusion. They can dodge the reaper borrowing for a time, but eventually they run out of other people's money. It's a Ponzi scheme, and it cannot but collapse. And then, of course, they blame. Merkel echos Obama here--markets, the loaners, the moneylenders (i.e. the people) are the enemy de jure. As in Soviet Russia, as in Orwell's 1984, as in Rand's Atlas Shrugged, as in Chavez's Venezuela or Mugabe's Zimbabwe, economic failures are never the ruler's, but from greedy elements within: sabotage. Blame bankers, doctors, bondholders, insurance companies, Wall Street, whatever, never the king. > If, as you suggest, Greece were just to disavow the debt, what's to > keep the crisis from reappearing, much worse, in a few years time? Nothing at all prevents that, unless Greece's citizens reign[sic] in their own government. Ditto the US, for the same reasons. That's why the Democrats' unbelievable spending is so distressing. And it's dangerous. James Arthur
From: John Larkin on 9 May 2010 19:02 On Sun, 9 May 2010 14:42:26 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat(a)yahoo.com wrote: >On May 9, 10:36 am, John Larkin ><jjlar...(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> On Fri, 07 May 2010 13:14:33 +0300, GM <nos...(a)please.com> wrote: >> >John Larkin wrote: >> >> >>http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ai35iM38zN08 >> >> >> Insane. Everybody in Greece will go on strike to punish... who? >> >> >> John >> >> >What is the best solution? >> >> >1. Default now with $300 bn internal & external debt and renegotiate the >> >debt payment >> >> >2. Take the IMF loan, put as a guarantee greek public properties (from >> >oil resources to Acropolis to greek islands), smash the middle class, >> >destroy the private sector (the major measure against the private sector >> >are going to be voted in September) and then after 3 years default with >> >a $500+ bn internal & external debt and let the german government take >> >everything including the ones that it couldn't take even in WWII >> >> >As a greek I choose number 1. Pure aristotelian logic... >> >> >Regards >> >Georgios M >> >> This is interesting, >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/08/world/europe/08europe.html >> >> especially Merkel's wonderful line �a battle of the politicians >> against the markets... I am determined to win.� Wow. > >It's perverse--the writer, and those politicians all have no idea, >only the conviction that loaning money will fix it. So, to lift them >out of debt, the EU's making Greece (another) subprime loan. > >It won't work, of course. That just puts Greece further in debt. >Chance of success = zero. > >AFAICT Greece should default--that's in their interest--and >renegotiate terms. And, the people who loaned them money will and >should lose it--part, or all. That's the chance you take in loaning >money to someone you shouldn't. Maybe in the future you'll think >twice. > >Greece's problem is their economic theory doesn't produce the benefits >they promise--it's hard to make people richer with their own money; >redistribution is a less-than-zero sum game. So they borrow to >substitute the illusion. They can dodge the reaper borrowing for a >time, but eventually they run out of other people's money. It's a >Ponzi scheme, and it cannot but collapse. > >And then, of course, they blame. Merkel echos Obama here--markets, >the loaners, the moneylenders (i.e. the people) are the enemy de jure. > >As in Soviet Russia, as in Orwell's 1984, as in Rand's Atlas Shrugged, >as in Chavez's Venezuela or Mugabe's Zimbabwe, economic failures are >never the ruler's, but from greedy elements within: sabotage. Blame >bankers, doctors, bondholders, insurance companies, Wall Street, >whatever, never the king. > > >> If, as you suggest, Greece were just to disavow the debt, what's to >> keep the crisis from reappearing, much worse, in a few years time? > >Nothing at all prevents that, unless Greece's citizens reign[sic] in >their own government. And get to work. John
From: dagmargoodboat on 10 May 2010 18:01
On May 9, 6:02 pm, John Larkin <jjlar...(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > On Sun, 9 May 2010 14:42:26 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodb...(a)yahoo.com > wrote: > >> If, as you suggest, Greece were just to disavow the debt, what's to > >> keep the crisis from reappearing, much worse, in a few years time? > > >Nothing at all prevents that, unless Greece's citizens reign[sic] in > >their own government. > > And get to work. Striking's more fun. I'm doing loads and loads of paperwork--I'd much rather strike too. -- Cheers, James Arthur |