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From: dorayme on 19 Jun 2010 00:42 In article <4c1c2a07$0$11265$c3e8da3(a)news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot(a)vaxination.ca> wrote: > Michelle Steiner wrote: > > > Please provide a scenario where the sun doesn't come up, but the world > > isn't ending. > > The sun never comes up. It has long been proven that the sun doesn't > rotate around the earth. It is the earth which rotates around the sun, > and it is the earth's own rotation which gives the illusion of the sun > moving in the sky. > > The sun doesn't rise above the horizon in the morning, it is the horizon > which drops below the sun :-) You don't say! A couple were visiting an old people's home, walking down a passageway when they heard an exasperated voice from inside one of the rooms, "Suck Mildred, suck, 'blow' is just an expression" -- dorayme
From: Ben C on 19 Jun 2010 03:56 On 2010-06-19, dorayme <dorayme(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > In article <slrni1mqbr.557.spamspam(a)bowser.marioworld>, > Ben C <spamspam(a)spam.eggs> wrote: > >> On 2010-06-18, dorayme <dorayme(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: >> > In article <slrni1mma0.557.spamspam(a)bowser.marioworld>, >> > Ben C <spamspam(a)spam.eggs> wrote: >> [...] >> >> In particular dealings with other people require small leaps of faith >> >> all the time ... >> >> >> >> So does science-- quite often people are trying to prove something they >> >> only have a hunch about or want to believe. Of course they've still got >> >> to prove it, but it's not what's driving them. >> >> >> > >> > Yes, we all trust and we are built and brought up to trust. I, >> > for example, think that there is more truth to what most >> > scientists are believing about man made climate change than you. >> > But we can rightly feel some bloody self respect about it because >> > the truth will out and we will come to agree more. >> >> In that case yes (although for climate change quite a lot of the truth >> has already come out). >> >> But lots of other things we all believe never get verified. >> > > OK, but to be optimistic for a moment, very roughly there are > three classes: > > - for those for which an argument could be mounted by someone or > other if they took the trouble but have not (farmer Joe expects > the sun to come up tomorrow) > > - for those for which no argument of any credibility could be > mounted at this time by anyone but for which one day there will > be an argument (good hunches and intuitions) > > - for those for which an argument could not be mounted by anyone > (barely meaningful ideas like that one can exist without a body > and forever) > > I place a lot of religious ideas in this last category. I would mostly agree with that, although arguments for these things not only can be mounted but have been extensively. It might be better to classify according to the kind of argument you need (where some kinds may turn out to be more bogus than others). There are arguments for things like existing forever without a body in Plato. It's a Christian heresy even though a lot of their theology does come from Plato (that's probably why they had to make it a heresy-- it keeps cropping up). >> >> Facts are not what are important in religious belief most of the time >> >> anyway, but things like morality and appreciation of nature. When it >> >> works well, it's more about perspective on known facts than fabrication >> >> of bogus facts. >> >> >> > >> > Sounds interesting the idea of perspective on known facts. Not >> > really sure why an "As if" would not do just as well for this >> > purpose. Just So stories are fun and interesting when done >> > consciously and rationally and with perspective. >> >> Yes, religions can be full of that kind of stuff. >> >> > But that is not what religious people do. >> >> Depends on the religious people. The ancient Greeks' idea of a religious >> festival was putting on tragedies. As far as I know nobody claimed or >> cared whether the events in them were supposed to have happened >> literally, but if you want truth and perspective, there is none finer. > > The world of people steeped in literature (or film or many other > of the arts for that matter) is quite a different world to that > of the world of folk not so fortunate. It is impossible for some > not to see the world through the prism of the great literature of > the world (and I am not excluding ancient biblical texts). > > But this is a very different thing to *believing* that Captain > Wentworth and Anne Elliot exist. It may be impossible for a man > or a woman steeped in Jane Austen's writings not to see the > parallels in their own lives of the tribulations the fictional > characters experienced. In other words, fiction can colour and > enrich a person's life without it spilling over into abject > scientific idiocy. Of course. In fact C.S. Lewis has quite a bit to answer for here. On the one hand he wrote those excellent Narnia allegories, which are much better than the actual Bible if you ask me, which seemed to be a step in the right direction. But on the other he greatly inspired the latest rash of God-botherers who go around insisting ridiculously that the Bible is actually a reasonable historical document that should just be taken at face value. > "God gave us this land", say some, and this has seemed to them to > *entitle them to grab it now*! Instead of the attitude: "Hey, > kids, God said this land was ours, it happened like this... Moses > ..." The Just So colouring the child in an interesting *literary > way* for ever more. Unfortunately the more liberal elements in a religion don't always survive as well, or receive as much funding, in the general struggle of memes, as the ones that make people feel guilty, scared, entitled, self-important, etc.
From: Wes Groleau on 19 Jun 2010 08:33 On 06-18-2010 22:09, dorayme wrote: > In article > <michelle-C09644.18540718062010(a)62-183-169-81.bb.dnainternet.fi>, > Michelle Steiner<michelle(a)michelle.org> wrote: > >> In article<dorayme-BFFC74.10062319062010(a)news.albasani.net>, >> dorayme<dorayme(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: >> >>>> Because if the Sun didn't come up tomorrow, the world will be ending. >>> >>> How do you work that out? >> >> Please provide a scenario where the sun doesn't come up, but the world >> isn't ending. > > My home ET civilization sends a team with a great sense of humour > over this way, they stick up a screen to blot out the sun for an > hour or two one otherwise fine morning - long enough to lose me > the bet and make a mad rich man with a taste for photography > happy... You'd ship the whole collection within one or two hours and not even stall a little? -- Wes Groleau Scribd Copyright Violations http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/russell?itemid=1529
From: Wes Groleau on 19 Jun 2010 08:36 On 06-18-2010 22:38, Thomas R. Kettler wrote: > Here's a way where the sun doesn't "come up" with the world not ending. > It happens already with Mercury. It also happens with the moon relative > to us. Since they are much smaller than the sun and the earth, > respectively, they are synchronized such that they revolve and rotate at > the same rate so they only show the same side. Thus, a "day" and a > "year" are the same length of time. When all the atmosphere is frozen on the dark side, and all flammable or plastic materials gone from the light side, the photo collection is still of no use to either part in the bet. -- Wes Groleau New Worksheets: Blue Butterfly and War of the Worlds http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/russell?itemid=1598
From: Wes Groleau on 19 Jun 2010 08:39
On 06-18-2010 22:23, JF Mezei wrote: > The sun never comes up. It has long been proven that the sun doesn't > rotate around the earth. It is the earth which rotates around the sun, > and it is the earth's own rotation which gives the illusion of the sun > moving in the sky. If the sun is your point of reference, that is the model or map, true. But the map is not the territory. To the Ray Stevens tune: Everything is relative In it's own way … -- Wes Groleau Miss Universe had “lots of fun” in Guantanamo http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/russell?itemid=1537 |