Hard Drive Password Problems
in [Storage]
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From: Folkert Rienstra on 3 Feb 2007 12:46 "Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM(a)neo.rr.com> wrote in message news:45c4b406$0$9009$4c368faf(a)roadrunner.com > Re: "The other half of the hash (to decode) was back in the original > laptop. Preventing someone from getting at it, especially by stealing > the drive, is just what that security is for; i.e., unless the drive is > in the original laptop that hashed up the drive's contents AND you know > the password, you will never get at the decoded contents of the drive." > I don't think that's correct. It isn't. He's obviously one of those rocket scientists. > This isn't windows, this is an IDE password. The implementation of that > is supposed to prevent access, on ANY computer, without the password. > But as far as I know, it is NOT supposed to tie the drive to the computer > ... the correct password should work on any computer. > Otherwise, as has happened here, if the computer motherboard dies, > then the drive is lost, and that is beyond secure, it is "data endangering". > And I don't think that's how it works. It doesn't. > > > Vanguard wrote: > > groupware(a)rocketmail.com> wrote in message news:1170496986.767710.158150(a)a34g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > > > Hi, > > > > > > My laptop has died and I have taken out the hard drive and connected > > > it to a USB connector. > > > [snip]
From: Barry Watzman on 4 Feb 2007 12:48 Vanguard's posts have been totally "out to lunch" on this entire subject and thread.
From: Rod Speed on 4 Feb 2007 13:11 John Doue <notwobe(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Rod Speed wrote: >> Vanguard <no(a)mail.invalid> wrote >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa(a)gmail.com> wrote >>>> John Doue <notwobe(a)yahoo.com> wrote >>>>> Vanguard wrote >>>>>> Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM(a)neo.rr.com> wrote >> >>>>>>> Re: "The other half of the hash (to decode) was back in the >>>>>>> original laptop. Preventing someone from getting at it, >>>>>>> especially by stealing the drive, is just what that security is >>>>>>> for; i.e., unless the drive is in the original laptop that >>>>>>> hashed up the drive's contents AND you know the password, you >>>>>>> will never get at the decoded contents of the drive." >> >>>>>>> I don't think that's correct. This isn't windows, >> >>>>>> I don't care what OS is on the drive, encrypted or not. The >>>>>> whole-disk encryption is performed in hardware. Half of that >>>>>> support is on the hard drive, the other half is back in the mobo. >>>>>> If the drive wanders off from the mobo that hashed up the drive, >>>>>> that drive cannot be decoded. It is very similar to e-mail >>>>>> encryption: the source (owner of the certificate or the mobo) has >>>>>> the "private" portion and the target (recipient or hard drive) >>>>>> has the "public" portion. Without both, there's no decryption, and >>>>>> the source controls that. >> >>>>>>> this is an IDE >> >>>>>> Yep, as I said, this hardware encryption was first provided in >>>>>> ATA-3 specification. >> >> No it wasnt. >> >>>>>> It is NOT solely implemented on the hard drive alone. >> >> There was no hardware encryption on the hard drive with the ATA spec. >> >>>>>> Unfortunately it costs to get copies of the ATA specs from >>>>>> http://www.t13.org/ and I really don't need them. >> >> The drafts are readily available for free and that detail didnt >> change. >>>>>>> Otherwise, as has happened here, if the computer motherboard >>>>>>> dies, then the drive is lost, and that is beyond secure, it is "data >>>>>>> endangering". >> >>>>>> Yep, that is what happens. And that is why you MUST do data >>>>>> backups since they won't depend on the private key for the >>>>>> encryption that the mobo has. The backups can either be open in >>>>>> that anyone could restore from them or you would password-protect >>>>>> them, but that password protection is entirely within the backup >>>>>> file so you could use another computer running the same backup >>>>>> program to restore your data because the password was only used >>>>>> to encode the file (i.e., there is no separation of private and >>>>>> public keys, there is just the one key used to encode the file). >> >>>>> I am curious to know what the final word is on that issue. Until >>>>> reading your post, I shared Barry's opinion. If you are correct, >>>>> and you seem to know your stuff, >> >>>> He doesnt, actually. Where the encryption is done is an entirely >>>> separate issue to whether the ATA password can be reentered >>>> for a drive that is moved from one system that supports ATA >>>> passwords to another that also does. >> >>> http://www.ami.com/support/doc/AMIBIOS8_HDD_Security.pdf >> >>> The user password is normally used to unlock the hard drive. >> >> Yep, and it says absolutely NOTHING about any ATA spec encryption. >> >>> The master password, if one exists, can also be used to unlock the >>> hard drive. >> >> Irrelevant to your pig ignorant claims about ENCRYPTION. >> >>> That is why I've seen some backdoor lists floating around of what >>> some mobo makers have been found to commonly use for a master >>> password. >> >> Pity the user is welcome to change that and obviously should do so. >> >>> The master password is also why you can call the maker of your mobo >>> as they may be able to tell you what is the master password for you >>> to unlock the drive. >> >> Pity that only allows you to ERASE the drive, not access the DATA. >> >>> Drive locking protection is obviously degraded if such backdoor >>> [master] passwords are common >> >> No it doesnt if you actually have a clue and change that master >> password. >>> and maybe that's why security-conscious users and corporations rely >>> on whole-disk encryption instead. >> >> Thats for a different reason entirely, because its actually possible >> to bypass that password protection when you have physical access to >> the drive. >>> Ron is correct in that I was mixing hard drive locking with >>> whole-disk encryption. These are separate security mechanisms. From the OP's >>> post, perhaps just disk locking was employed and not encryption. >> >>> Since the OP gave absolutely no details on WHAT was the original >>> computer in which the drive was locked (and maybe encrypted, too), guesses is all that can be >>> profferred. >> >> Anyone with a clue has noticed that you mangled the story completely. >> >>> Since the OP already tried in another computer that prompted for >>> the password but it did not work then it sure seems that the BIOS >>> makers can customize how they support the drive lock feature. >> >> You dont even know that the OP is entering the password correctly. >> >>> That is, just because there is an ATA standard, it could be rather >>> vague >> >> No it isnt. >> >>> or the BIOS makers may even deliberately tweak it so to be almost >>> proprietary. >> >> No they dont. >> >>> As Odie alluded, drive locking may not be compatible between >>> different BIOSes. >> >> He didnt say anything like that. The ATA standard makes it very >> clear how it works. >>> I'm wondering if a replacement of the PCB on the hard drive might >>> "repair" or unlock the drive. That is, get another exact same drive >>> and use its PCB on the problematic drive. Since the replacement >>> PCB hasn't been password enabled yet, maybe it would permit access >>> to the drive. >> >> VERY unlikely that it would be that pathetically implemented. >> >> Because that would defeat the whole point of the ATA security >> feature. >>> I tried this once with an old drive (so getting an exact >>> replacement was pricey due to rarity) because a voltage regulator >>> component blew which rendered the drive useless (it wouldn't spin >>> up). The replacement PCB got the drive to spin up. >> >> Irrelevant to the ATA security feature. >> >>> It could even be that the translation geometry for LBA mode of the >>> original computer doesn't match that used in the second computer. >> >> Wrong again. You'd get a different result if that was the problem. >> >>> Start at http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/bios/modesLBA-c.html. Then >>> read http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/bios/modesCaveats-c.html about >>> the hazard (to data) of moving hard drives between computers, >>> especially with different BIOSes. >> >> Pity that is irrelevant when the AUTO drive type is used. >> >>> I have ran into this when moving drives between hosts really old >>> hardware hosts to new hardware hosts. >> >> Pity his isnt really old hardware. >> >> > Rod, > > Those links are interesting but it would be nice to know when they were written. Yeah, thats always been one downside of pcguide, it tends to lag reality by quite a bit. > They do not seem to relate to today's hard drive issues. They are in the sense that its possible to use other than an AUTO drive type. They arent when an AUTO drive type is used.
From: Rod Speed on 4 Feb 2007 13:12 Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM(a)neo.rr.com> wrote: > Vanguard's posts have been totally "out to lunch" on this entire subject and thread. They have indeed.
From: groupware on 4 Feb 2007 14:52
On Feb 4, 9:41 am, John Doue <notw...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Rod Speed wrote: > > Vanguard <n...(a)mail.invalid> wrote > >> Rod Speed <rod.speed....(a)gmail.com> wrote > >>> John Doue <notw...(a)yahoo.com> wrote > >>>> Vanguard wrote > >>>>> Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOS...(a)neo.rr.com> wrote > > >>>>>> Re: "The other half of the hash (to decode) was back in the original laptop. Preventing > >>>>>> someone from getting at it, especially by stealing the drive, is just what that security is > >>>>>> for; i.e., unless the drive is in the original laptop that hashed up the drive's contents AND > >>>>>> you know the password, you will never get at the decoded contents of the drive." > > >>>>>> I don't think that's correct. This isn't windows, > > >>>>> I don't care what OS is on the drive, encrypted or not. The > >>>>> whole-disk encryption is performed in hardware. Half of that > >>>>> support is on the hard drive, the other half is back in the mobo. > >>>>> If the drive wanders off from the mobo that hashed up the drive, > >>>>> that drive cannot be decoded. It is very similar to e-mail > >>>>> encryption: the source (owner of the certificate or the mobo) has > >>>>> the "private" portion and the target (recipient or hard drive) has > >>>>> the "public" portion. Without both, there's no decryption, and the > >>>>> source controls that. > > >>>>>> this is an IDE > > >>>>> Yep, as I said, this hardware encryption was first provided in ATA-3 specification. > > > No it wasnt. > > >>>>> It is NOT solely implemented on the hard drive alone. > > > There was no hardware encryption on the hard drive with the ATA spec. > > >>>>> Unfortunately it costs to get copies of the ATA specs fromhttp://www.t13.org/and I really > >>>>> don't need them. > > > The drafts are readily available for free and that detail didnt change. > > >>>>>> Otherwise, as has happened here, if the computer motherboard dies, > >>>>>> then the drive is lost, and that is beyond secure, it is "data endangering". > > >>>>> Yep, that is what happens. And that is why you MUST do data > >>>>> backups since they won't depend on the private key for the > >>>>> encryption that the mobo has. The backups can either be open in > >>>>> that anyone could restore from them or you would password-protect > >>>>> them, but that password protection is entirely within the backup > >>>>> file so you could use another computer running the same backup > >>>>> program to restore your data because the password was only used to encode the file (i.e., there > >>>>> is no separation of private and > >>>>> public keys, there is just the one key used to encode the file). > > >>>> I am curious to know what the final word is on that issue. Until reading your post, I shared > >>>> Barry's opinion. If you are correct, and you seem to know your stuff, > > >>> He doesnt, actually. Where the encryption is done is an entirely > >>> separate issue to whether the ATA password can be reentered > >>> for a drive that is moved from one system that supports ATA > >>> passwords to another that also does. > > >>http://www.ami.com/support/doc/AMIBIOS8_HDD_Security.pdf > > >> The user password is normally used to unlock the hard drive. > > > Yep, and it says absolutely NOTHING about any ATA spec encryption. > > >> The master password, if one exists, can also be used to unlock the hard drive. > > > Irrelevant to your pig ignorant claims about ENCRYPTION. > > >> That is why I've seen some backdoor lists floating around of what some mobo makers have been found > >> to commonly use for a master password. > > > Pity the user is welcome to change that and obviously should do so. > > >> The master password is also why you can call the maker of your mobo as they may be able to tell > >> you what is the master password for you to unlock the drive. > > > Pity that only allows you to ERASE the drive, not access the DATA. > > >> Drive locking protection is obviously degraded if such backdoor [master] passwords are common > > > No it doesnt if you actually have a clue and change that master password. > > >> and maybe that's why security-conscious users and corporations rely on whole-disk encryption > >> instead. > > > Thats for a different reason entirely, because its actually possible to bypass > > that password protection when you have physical access to the drive. > > >> Ron is correct in that I was mixing hard drive locking with whole-disk > >> encryption. These are separate security mechanisms. From the OP's > >> post, perhaps just disk locking was employed and not encryption. > > >> Since the OP gave absolutely no details on WHAT was the original computer in which the drive was > >> locked (and maybe encrypted, too), guesses is all that can be profferred. > > > Anyone with a clue has noticed that you mangled the story completely. > > >> Since the OP already tried in another computer that prompted for the password but it did not work > >> then it sure seems that the BIOS makers can customize how they support the drive lock feature. > > > You dont even know that the OP is entering the password correctly. > > >> That is, just because there is an ATA standard, it could be rather vague > > > No it isnt. > > >> or the BIOS makers may even deliberately tweak it so to be almost proprietary. > > > No they dont. > > >> As Odie alluded, drive locking may not be compatible between different BIOSes. > > > He didnt say anything like that. The ATA standard makes it very clear how it works. > > >> I'm wondering if a replacement of the PCB on the hard drive might "repair" or unlock the drive. > >> That is, get another exact same drive and use its PCB on the problematic drive. Since the > >> replacement PCB hasn't been password enabled yet, maybe it would permit access to the drive. > > > VERY unlikely that it would be that pathetically implemented. > > > Because that would defeat the whole point of the ATA security feature. > > >> I tried this once with an old drive (so getting an exact replacement was pricey due to rarity) > >> because a voltage regulator component blew which rendered the drive useless (it wouldn't spin up). > >> The replacement PCB got the drive to spin up. > > > Irrelevant to the ATA security feature. > > >> It could even be that the translation geometry for LBA mode of the > >> original computer doesn't match that used in the second computer. > > > Wrong again. You'd get a different result if that was the problem. > > >> Start athttp://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/bios/modesLBA-c.html. Then > >> readhttp://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/bios/modesCaveats-c.htmlabout > >> the hazard (to data) of moving hard drives between computers, especially with different BIOSes. > > > Pity that is irrelevant when the AUTO drive type is used. > > >> I have ran into this when moving drives between hosts really old hardware hosts to new hardware > >> hosts. > > > Pity his isnt really old hardware. > > Rod, > > Those links are interesting but it would be nice to know when they were > written. They do not seem to relate to today's hard drive issues. > > Regards > > -- > John Doue Thanks for all the replys (and discussion) To answer a few questions: - the hardrive is a Seagate Momentus 7200.1 - the original laptop is an LG and uses Phoenix Bios - the hardrive is locked using ATA Password locking and not encrypted Any further thoughts on why the HP laptop doesn't recognise the password are appreciated. Prior to posting I had researched this quite a bit and have checked most of the links for geting to the Master password and will probably try this in due course if I can;t solve the user password issue. Thanks again. Jason |