I hope this is a heartening economic sign...
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From: Joerg on 6 Apr 2010 16:08 Jim Thompson wrote: > On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 12:00:56 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> Jim Thompson wrote: >>> On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 11:17:38 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 11:02:23 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>>> On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 15:44:55 GMT, nico(a)puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> MooseFET <kensmith(a)rahul.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 5:45=A0pm, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...(a)On-My- >>>>>>>>> Web-Site.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I hope this is a heartening economic sign (just received from >>>>>>>>>> MOSIS)... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "MOSIS foundry partners report that they are running at full capacity. >>>>>>>>>> As a consequence we anticipate delays in wafer starts. These delays >>>>>>>>>> cannot be recovered during fabrication and will impact the amount of >>>>>>>>>> time it takes for MOSIS to deliver parts to customers. =A0Although some >>>>>>>>>> lots may have normal turnaround, others may take longer, perhaps five >>>>>>>>>> to six weeks added time, compared to prior runs. These longer >>>>>>>>>> fabrication times are being seen at all foundries, not just those that >>>>>>>>>> work with MOSIS." >>>>>>>>> My wife works for a company related to the chip industry. They have >>>>>>>>> increased >>>>>>>>> their staff by about 3X over the last 4 months. The chip industry is >>>>>>>>> heating >>>>>>>>> up. >>>>>>>> The chip industry is not heating up. The chip industry has created >>>>>>>> artificial shortages by laying off more people and closing more >>>>>>>> factories than necessary. >>>>>>> Huh? The only one I know of is ON Semi, after buying AMIS, closed >>>>>>> FAB9 (in Pocatello), an ancient process. >>>>>>> >>>>>> So what's left of the good old AMI Plant? If they bulldozed the only HV >>>>>> fab they had I think ON shot themselves into the foot. >>>>> Naaaah! HV isn't done that way anymore... takes too much chip area. >>>>> >>>> Nah, they could do it. Look here: >>>> >>>> http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/content.do?id=16622 >>> Fab9 was old-fashioned CAxxxx kind of stuff... stuff that only those >>> that can't stop living in the past want to use. >>> >> That stuff can be very useful in some applications. > > For what? Spare parts? > No, medical :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: krw on 6 Apr 2010 18:36 On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 12:11:22 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Jim Yanik wrote: >> Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote >> in news:a2nmr555rprf21mqhbvbde9lccg31deqcu(a)4ax.com: >> >> >>> And the chip business is showing signs of heating up... overseas... >>> but US business is pathetic. >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >> >> of course;what's made here in the US anymore? > > >Lots of medical electronics, aerospace, oil/gas gear, industrial >electronics. And that's just browsing my own turf, there's lots more. Lots of microprocessors and memory. Some high-value ASICs. A ton of specialty stuff. >For example, there ain't nothing whatsoever engineered or produced in >any other country that rivals this, and lots of patients sure will be >glad it's around (so they will be around for a long time after the >cardiology procedure): > >http://www.volcanocorp.com/products/ivus-imaging/index.asp > >I also wouldn't know where the Hittites and Triquints would be in other >parts of the world. Or the Intels and AMDs. > > >> I've read Tektronix[now a Danaher subsidiary] is going to be building their >> scopes in China. >> > >That's inevitable. DSOs have become low cost products and there is just >too much competition from Asian companies. Some of which, I must say, >did a better job in the run-of-the-mills DSO market at times. There's a >reason why the latest DSO on my lab bench is not a Tektronix or Agilent.
From: Joerg on 6 Apr 2010 19:12 Jim Thompson wrote: > On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:22:01 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> Jim Thompson wrote: >>> On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:24:48 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> [...] >>>> If you meant CDxxxx that's all alive and kicking. >>> FAB9 was CMOS. OK, I couldn't remember the prefix :-) >>> >> So you think CDxxxx is obsolete technology? Message from young buck to >> old buck: > > Certainly. Anyone with half a brain knows the foolishness of mixed > analog/digital on a single-voltage-choice process. > For some reason I've never seen a problem with that. I sure hope not but if you do get really sick you may have devices used on yourself that contain those. Designed by yours truly. >> A Fairchild sales guy told me the same thing in the mid-90's, that I'd >> be out of my mind doing a new design with CD-logic and stuff in there. >> He wanted to sell me on their TinyLogic which was way more expensive, >> would have required an additional voltage regulator and could not >> directly drive cheap standard level FETs. CDxxxx would be obsolete >> within very few years and yada, yada, yada. Afterwards I had a hearty >> laugh. Long story short this very design is still in full production (in >> Shenzen). It might still be when I put my teeth in a jar at night. > > If CDxxxx proves to be viable, it'll still be made. But don't come > crying when someone else follows ON's lead and shuts down a low volume > line also. > That's what I am saying, it is viable. You can use unregulated supplies, do analog stuff with them, hang'em directly onto a 12V rail. In many apps there just isn't any alternative. >> Do I anticipate a parts shortage? Nope. Why would Digikey have 20,000 >> stock of the CD4060? What could possibly replace it at same cost? > > That may well be ALL the CD4060 in the world :-) > Nope, Arrow and others have more. Lots more. But this is a cut-throat market, maybe ON had to throw in the towel? That's what happened with, for example, intravascular ultrasound. One day HP shut the whole chebang down, cost lots of jobs. But that wasn't because the market had shriveled up, it was because folks like us were eating their lunch. In fact I met a guy from HP a week ago when picking up some cases at our local winery. "So that was you guys who dunnit?" ... I apologized for having done them in ;-) >> >>> Marvelous bipolar can be had with process XB06, along with 0.6u CMOS. >>> >>> Get modern, Joerg! >>> >> If you'd know what we've got cooking at one client in terms of chip >> design you wouldn't say that. Several hundred HV channels, some digital >> stuff, more than a dozen VGAs, at tens of meggeehoitzes. All on one li'l >> die. > > Better performance at half the price on one of those mixed process > technologies I mentioned. > I am talking 10-15c a pop here. At our volume and Asia pricing well under 10c. Cents ;-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Jim Thompson on 6 Apr 2010 19:40 On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 16:12:14 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Jim Thompson wrote: >> On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:22:01 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>> On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:24:48 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> > >[...] > >>>>> If you meant CDxxxx that's all alive and kicking. >>>> FAB9 was CMOS. OK, I couldn't remember the prefix :-) >>>> >>> So you think CDxxxx is obsolete technology? Message from young buck to >>> old buck: >> >> Certainly. Anyone with half a brain knows the foolishness of mixed >> analog/digital on a single-voltage-choice process. >> > >For some reason I've never seen a problem with that. I sure hope not but >if you do get really sick you may have devices used on yourself that >contain those. Designed by yours truly. I'm really puzzled by your use of CDxxxx in _new_ designs??? If you're just patching old stuff... OK. But _new_ stuff? > > >>> A Fairchild sales guy told me the same thing in the mid-90's, that I'd >>> be out of my mind doing a new design with CD-logic and stuff in there. >>> He wanted to sell me on their TinyLogic which was way more expensive, >>> would have required an additional voltage regulator and could not >>> directly drive cheap standard level FETs. CDxxxx would be obsolete >>> within very few years and yada, yada, yada. Afterwards I had a hearty >>> laugh. Long story short this very design is still in full production (in >>> Shenzen). It might still be when I put my teeth in a jar at night. >> >> If CDxxxx proves to be viable, it'll still be made. But don't come >> crying when someone else follows ON's lead and shuts down a low volume >> line also. >> > >That's what I am saying, it is viable. You can use unregulated supplies, >do analog stuff with them, hang'em directly onto a 12V rail. In many >apps there just isn't any alternative. > > >>> Do I anticipate a parts shortage? Nope. Why would Digikey have 20,000 >>> stock of the CD4060? What could possibly replace it at same cost? >> >> That may well be ALL the CD4060 in the world :-) >> > >Nope, Arrow and others have more. Lots more. But this is a cut-throat >market, maybe ON had to throw in the towel? That's what happened with, >for example, intravascular ultrasound. One day HP shut the whole chebang >down, cost lots of jobs. But that wasn't because the market had >shriveled up, it was because folks like us were eating their lunch. In >fact I met a guy from HP a week ago when picking up some cases at our >local winery. "So that was you guys who dunnit?" ... I apologized for >having done them in ;-) > >>> >>>> Marvelous bipolar can be had with process XB06, along with 0.6u CMOS. >>>> >>>> Get modern, Joerg! >>>> >>> If you'd know what we've got cooking at one client in terms of chip >>> design you wouldn't say that. Several hundred HV channels, some digital >>> stuff, more than a dozen VGAs, at tens of meggeehoitzes. All on one li'l >>> die. >> >> Better performance at half the price on one of those mixed process >> technologies I mentioned. >> > >I am talking 10-15c a pop here. At our volume and Asia pricing well >under 10c. Cents ;-) You're like Larkin, get stuck in an untenable position, then get obstinate ;-) Enjoy! But watch out. I've seen other stuff than CDxxxx continue on a line that was not maintained, just let 'er run. Then parts start dying and you can't get a replacement source. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | The only thing bipartisan in this country is hypocrisy
From: Joerg on 6 Apr 2010 20:20
Jim Thompson wrote: > On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 16:12:14 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> Jim Thompson wrote: >>> On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:22:01 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:24:48 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >> [...] >> >>>>>> If you meant CDxxxx that's all alive and kicking. >>>>> FAB9 was CMOS. OK, I couldn't remember the prefix :-) >>>>> >>>> So you think CDxxxx is obsolete technology? Message from young buck to >>>> old buck: >>> Certainly. Anyone with half a brain knows the foolishness of mixed >>> analog/digital on a single-voltage-choice process. >>> >> For some reason I've never seen a problem with that. I sure hope not but >> if you do get really sick you may have devices used on yourself that >> contain those. Designed by yours truly. > > I'm really puzzled by your use of CDxxxx in _new_ designs??? > > If you're just patching old stuff... OK. But _new_ stuff? > You'd be surprised how many other recent designs contain them. One of the things I regularly do is open consumer goods to see what's in there. That's a pretty good indicator of what will stick in the marketplace. Very good learning experience, also for packaging. >> >>>> A Fairchild sales guy told me the same thing in the mid-90's, that I'd >>>> be out of my mind doing a new design with CD-logic and stuff in there. >>>> He wanted to sell me on their TinyLogic which was way more expensive, >>>> would have required an additional voltage regulator and could not >>>> directly drive cheap standard level FETs. CDxxxx would be obsolete >>>> within very few years and yada, yada, yada. Afterwards I had a hearty >>>> laugh. Long story short this very design is still in full production (in >>>> Shenzen). It might still be when I put my teeth in a jar at night. >>> If CDxxxx proves to be viable, it'll still be made. But don't come >>> crying when someone else follows ON's lead and shuts down a low volume >>> line also. >>> >> That's what I am saying, it is viable. You can use unregulated supplies, >> do analog stuff with them, hang'em directly onto a 12V rail. In many >> apps there just isn't any alternative. >> >> >>>> Do I anticipate a parts shortage? Nope. Why would Digikey have 20,000 >>>> stock of the CD4060? What could possibly replace it at same cost? >>> That may well be ALL the CD4060 in the world :-) >>> >> Nope, Arrow and others have more. Lots more. But this is a cut-throat >> market, maybe ON had to throw in the towel? That's what happened with, >> for example, intravascular ultrasound. One day HP shut the whole chebang >> down, cost lots of jobs. But that wasn't because the market had >> shriveled up, it was because folks like us were eating their lunch. In >> fact I met a guy from HP a week ago when picking up some cases at our >> local winery. "So that was you guys who dunnit?" ... I apologized for >> having done them in ;-) >> >>>>> Marvelous bipolar can be had with process XB06, along with 0.6u CMOS. >>>>> >>>>> Get modern, Joerg! >>>>> >>>> If you'd know what we've got cooking at one client in terms of chip >>>> design you wouldn't say that. Several hundred HV channels, some digital >>>> stuff, more than a dozen VGAs, at tens of meggeehoitzes. All on one li'l >>>> die. >>> Better performance at half the price on one of those mixed process >>> technologies I mentioned. >>> >> I am talking 10-15c a pop here. At our volume and Asia pricing well >> under 10c. Cents ;-) > > You're like Larkin, get stuck in an untenable position, then get > obstinate ;-) > You think it's untenable. I don't :-) Anyhow, the guy from Fairchild was clearly wrong, 100%. And you may be, too, with your assertion that CD-logic is dead. BTW the sales rep back in the 90's was not the only engineer predicting the imminent demise of CD-logic. That was about 15 years ago ... > Enjoy! But watch out. I've seen other stuff than CDxxxx continue on > a line that was not maintained, just let 'er run. Then parts start > dying and you can't get a replacement source. > Let's see. There is: Fairchild, TI, NXP, Thomson, Rohm, Toshiba. Do you honestly believe a Japanese company lets anything run non-maintained? Yeah, some may quit along the way because profits aren't great. But distributors would not stock tens of thousands of chips if the technology was turning into a dud. Most certainly not in this economy. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. |