Interview
in [Java Help]
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From: GArlington on 1 Oct 2009 05:00 On 1 Oct, 02:14, "Ken T." <nowh...(a)home.com> wrote: > I had an interview today. It didn't go as well as I would have liked. > It didn't go badly but I wasn't familiar with everything my potential > employer did. > > When did it become necessary for a developer to not only know the > language used inside out, but also the APIs used, the third party tools > used, and basically to have done the same job for the last five years. > > I thought that the whole point of a good computer science education was > that you could apply what you learned to any language or API. > > BTW, this was for a Java position with a focus on Swing. I'm an expert > Java developer and a damn good swing developer. There are just parts of > the API swing API that I have yet to have needed and those I'm unfamiliar > with (many having to do with look and feel). > > -- > Ken T. > > We must all hang together, or most assuredly, we will all hang > separately. > -- Benjamin Franklin I depends on interviewer: the agencies respond to buzzwords in the requirements that they get and they match the above to your CV, they (usually) know nothing about the technology and in many cases will NOT match request for JSP to your Java Server Pages experience... In the same way non-technical interviewer will only know what they have been told and only match those words to what you say... So, do not despair, next interview will be with a techie. Good luck
From: Tom Anderson on 1 Oct 2009 16:31 On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Ken T. wrote: > I had an interview today. It didn't go as well as I would have liked. > It didn't go badly but I wasn't familiar with everything my potential > employer did. > > When did it become necessary for a developer to not only know the > language used inside out, but also the APIs used, the third party tools > used, and basically to have done the same job for the last five years. > > I thought that the whole point of a good computer science education was > that you could apply what you learned to any language or API. It is. Most people are idiots, and don't appreciate this. Some of these idiots are managers. tom -- Most people lose their talent at puberty. I lost mine in my early twenties. I began to think of children not as immature adults, but of adults as atrophied children. -- Keith Johnstone
From: Eric Sosman on 1 Oct 2009 17:38 Tom Anderson wrote: > On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Ken T. wrote: > >> I had an interview today. It didn't go as well as I would have liked. >> It didn't go badly but I wasn't familiar with everything my potential >> employer did. >> >> When did it become necessary for a developer to not only know the >> language used inside out, but also the APIs used, the third party tools >> used, and basically to have done the same job for the last five years. >> >> I thought that the whole point of a good computer science education was >> that you could apply what you learned to any language or API. > > It is. Most people are idiots, and don't appreciate this. Some of these > idiots are managers. Quick question: Have you ever been a hiring manager? What hoops did you have to jump through to get budget allocations for the new employee(s)? What promises did you have to make to the people who authorized the money? I have hired people, and I have had to go to the mat to justify the expenditure -- which is not trivial, as the fully-burdened cost of a full-time engineer runs at least 150% of the "face value" salary, sometimes a good deal more. I had to make the case that we needed additional help, and would never have succeeded with "Let's hire somebody just in case; I bet it'll come in handy someday." No, the debate *always* centered on our needs for some project that was already underway, or at least imminent. And if you've justified the position on the grounds that Project Pancake needs help, the person who fills it had better not be a general-issue cook, but someone who really knows griddles. I eventually got myself out of the management game, feeling that I wasn't all that good at it and that there were aspects of it that I actively disliked. I especially hated doing annual performance reviews; who was I to be playing Judge, Jury, and Executioner with these people? And on one occasion there was a person I really should have fired, but I lacked the guts. Luckily for me he accepted an offer elsewhere and left under his own power, but I knew I'd lucked out and might not luck out the next time. So I jumped off the management ladder -- I hadn't gotten high enough to suffer injury from the fall -- and have been much happier since, thank you. But I *don't* subscribe to the no-thought Dilbertian dismissal of managers as inherently defective (a position more extreme than the one you've actually taken, I confess, but using words like "idiots" to describe people who face circumstances of which you wot not tends to make me rant a bit). Okay, enough. Now, where did I put that pill bottle? -- Eric.Sosman(a)sun.com
From: Tom Anderson on 1 Oct 2009 18:42 On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Eric Sosman wrote: > Tom Anderson wrote: >> On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Ken T. wrote: >> >>> I had an interview today. It didn't go as well as I would have liked. >>> It didn't go badly but I wasn't familiar with everything my potential >>> employer did. >>> >>> When did it become necessary for a developer to not only know the >>> language used inside out, but also the APIs used, the third party tools >>> used, and basically to have done the same job for the last five years. >>> >>> I thought that the whole point of a good computer science education was >>> that you could apply what you learned to any language or API. >> >> It is. Most people are idiots, and don't appreciate this. Some of these >> idiots are managers. > > Quick question: Have you ever been a hiring manager? No. > What hoops did you have to jump through to get budget allocations for > the new employee(s)? What promises did you have to make to the people > who authorized the money? > > I have hired people, and I have had to go to the mat to justify the > expenditure -- which is not trivial, as the fully-burdened cost of a > full-time engineer runs at least 150% of the "face value" salary, > sometimes a good deal more. I had to make the case that we needed > additional help, and would never have succeeded with "Let's hire > somebody just in case; I bet it'll come in handy someday." No, the > debate *always* centered on our needs for some project that was already > underway, or at least imminent. And if you've justified the position on > the grounds that Project Pancake needs help, the person who fills it had > better not be a general-issue cook, but someone who really knows > griddles. The person who *should* fill it should be someone who will get Project Pancake back on track as fast as possible. That might be someone who's spent the last ten years being a short-order cook, true. But it could well be a hotshot sous-chef who can pick up everything there is to know about griddles in a couple of weeks. Now, you're talking about what you have to do to keep the next layer up happy, not what's best for the project. That's the point you're making here. But i don't think this is really any different to the situation i was implying - there are people making bad decisions who have the power to make them stick somewhere in the tree. It might be the person doing the hiring, it might be their boss, it might be anyone up to the chairman of the board, or indeed your local national legislative body. None of which changes the fact that Ken T., who spent four years studying under Gordon Ramsay, is going to lose out to some burger-flipping dolt on the strength of a few bullet points. > I eventually got myself out of the management game, feeling that I > wasn't all that good at it and that there were aspects of it that I > actively disliked. I especially hated doing annual performance reviews; > who was I to be playing Judge, Jury, and Executioner with these people? > And on one occasion there was a person I really should have fired, but > I lacked the guts. Luckily for me he accepted an offer elsewhere and > left under his own power, but I knew I'd lucked out and might not luck > out the next time. So I jumped off the management ladder -- I hadn't > gotten high enough to suffer injury from the fall -- and have been much > happier since, thank you. But I *don't* subscribe to the no-thought > Dilbertian dismissal of managers as inherently defective (a position > more extreme than the one you've actually taken, I confess, but using > words like "idiots" to describe people who face circumstances of which > you wot not tends to make me rant a bit). I certainly didn't mean to imply that managers are a special breed of imbecile. I think most developers are idiots too. tom -- [Philosophy] is kind of like being driven behind the sofa by Dr Who - scary, but still entertaining. -- itchyfidget
From: markspace on 1 Oct 2009 18:55
Eric Sosman wrote: > > Okay, enough. Now, where did I put that pill bottle? > I put mine in the empty beer bottles. ;) |