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From: Rainer Joswig on 13 Dec 2009 04:45
In article
<f16c75c6-088b-4642-a6a5-1ddd6b524d3a(a)b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
"joswig(a)corporate-world.lisp.de" <joswig(a)lisp.de> wrote:

> On 13 Dez., 09:17, "W. James" <w_a_x_...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Mirko wrote:
> > > The authors of recent lisp books need to think more about the books'
> > > titles. �Look at these two:
> >
> > > �- Let over Lambda (own it)
> > > �- Land of Lisp (will try to get it)
> >
> > > What do they have in common? �The same acronym as `lots of laughs':
> > > LOL.
> >
> > > I mean who will take language seriously thusly titled books? �How can
> > > I tell anyone that I like lisp. �They will go online, see these books,
> > > and just laugh.
> >
> > > Nevertheless, congrats to the authors,
> >
> > > Mirko
> >
> > Are these books about CL (COBOL-LISP)? �If so, then they
> > aren't about Lisp. �The book _Learning LISP_ (1984) says:
> >
> > "Lisp is simple."
> > "Lisp is fun."
> >
> > One certainly can't honestly say that COBOL-L (CL, Commode Lisp,
> > Commune Lisp, etc.) is simple or fun.
> >
> > Guy L. Steele, Jr., July 1989:
> >
> > I think we may usefully compare the approximate number of pages
> > in the defining standard or draft standard for several
> > programming languages:
> >
> > � Common Lisp � 1000 or more
> > � COBOL � � � � �810
> > � ATLAS � � � � �790
> > � Fortran 77 � � 430
> > � PL/I � � � � � 420
> > � BASIC � � � � �360
> > � ADA � � � � � �340
> > � Fortran 8x � � 300
> > � C � � � � � � �220
> > � Pascal � � � � 120
> > � DIBOL � � � � � 90
> > � Scheme � � � � �50
> >
> > Let's ban the CL hyenas and keep this newsgroup focused on genuine Lisp.
> >
> > --
>
> Common Lisp 1000 or more
> COBOL 810
> ATLAS 790
> Fortran 77 430
> PL/I 420
> BASIC 360
> ADA 340
> Fortran 8x 300
> C 220
> Pascal 120
> DIBOL 90
> Scheme 50
> Ruby 0
>
> FTFY

Oh wait, there is a Ruby draft standard (so it is still growing).

http://ruby-std.netlab.jp/draft_spec/draft_ruby_spec-20091201.pdf

It has 325 pages.

So Ruby is just a bit behind Ada and in front of Fortran 8x:

� Common Lisp � 1000 or more
� COBOL � � � � �810
� ATLAS � � � � �790
� Fortran 77 � � 430
� PL/I � � � � � 420
� BASIC � � � � �360
� ADA � � � � � �340
Ruby 325
� Fortran 8x � � 300
� C � � � � � � �220
� Pascal � � � � 120
� DIBOL � � � � � 90
� Scheme � � � � �50

Is it Commune Ruby now?
From: Frank Buss on 13 Dec 2009 05:40
Rainer Joswig wrote:

> Oh wait, there is a Ruby draft standard (so it is still growing).
>
> http://ruby-std.netlab.jp/draft_spec/draft_ruby_spec-20091201.pdf
>
> It has 325 pages.
>
> So Ruby is just a bit behind Ada and in front of Fortran 8x:
>
> � Common Lisp � 1000 or more
> � COBOL � � � � �810
> � ATLAS � � � � �790
> � Fortran 77 � � 430
> � PL/I � � � � � 420
> � BASIC � � � � �360
> � ADA � � � � � �340
> Ruby 325
> � Fortran 8x � � 300
> � C � � � � � � �220
> � Pascal � � � � 120
> � DIBOL � � � � � 90
> � Scheme � � � � �50
>
> Is it Commune Ruby now?

Interesting list. For Java it is 684 pages:

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/download/langspec-3.0.pdf

But this is just the language. Lisp is much easier compared to Java, but
the Lisp documentation includes all library functions. If all Java standard
classes would be included, it would be a book with many thousands of pages.

The number for C is outdated. The ISO/IEC 9899:1999 standard (not public,
you have to buy it) is 550 pages long. And the ISO/IEC 14882 standard for
C++ is 776 pages long, but this will be much more with the upcoming new C++
standard, with garbage collection and lots of Boost extensions.

� Common Lisp � 1000 or more
� COBOL � � � � �810
� ATLAS � � � � �790
� C++ � � � � � �776
Java 684
� C � � � � � � �550
� Fortran 77 � � 430
� PL/I � � � � � 420
� BASIC � � � � �360
� ADA � � � � � �340
Ruby 325
� Fortran 8x � � 300
� Pascal � � � � 120
� DIBOL � � � � � 90
� Scheme � � � � �50

--
Frank Buss, fb(a)frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
From: joswig on 13 Dec 2009 07:27
On 13 Dez., 11:40, Frank Buss <f...(a)frank-buss.de> wrote:
> Rainer Joswig wrote:
> > Oh wait, there is a Ruby draft standard (so it is still growing).
>
> >http://ruby-std.netlab.jp/draft_spec/draft_ruby_spec-20091201.pdf
>
> > It has 325 pages.
>
> > So Ruby is just a bit behind Ada and in front of Fortran 8x:
>
> > Common Lisp 1000 or more
> > COBOL 810
> > ATLAS 790
> > Fortran 77 430
> > PL/I 420
> > BASIC 360
> > ADA 340
> >   Ruby           325
> > Fortran 8x 300
> > C 220
> > Pascal 120
> > DIBOL 90
> > Scheme 50
>
> > Is it Commune Ruby now?
>
> Interesting list. For Java it is 684 pages:
>
> http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/download/langspec-3.0.pdf
>
> But this is just the language. Lisp is much easier compared to Java, but
> the Lisp documentation includes all library functions. If all Java standard
> classes would be included, it would be a book with many thousands of pages.
>
> The number for C is outdated. The ISO/IEC 9899:1999 standard (not public,
> you have to buy it) is 550 pages long. And the ISO/IEC 14882 standard for
> C++ is 776 pages long, but this will be much more with the upcoming new C++
> standard, with garbage collection and lots of Boost extensions.
>
> Common Lisp 1000 or more
> COBOL 810
> ATLAS 790
> C++ 776
>   Java           684
> C 550
> Fortran 77 430
> PL/I 420
> BASIC 360
> ADA 340
>   Ruby           325
> Fortran 8x 300
> Pascal 120
> DIBOL 90
> Scheme 50
>
> --
> Frank Buss, f...(a)frank-buss.dehttp://www.frank-buss.de,http://www.it4-systems.de

Frank the numbers are twenty years old. The Common Lisp standard has
not changed since then.

I have posted a few weeks ago updated numbers:

C++ 1281
Ada 765
Fortran 605
C 538
Haskell 98 256
ECMAScript/Javascript 241
Scheme 187
Eiffel 174

The C++ number was from the latest draft that is being worked on

Plus the Common Lisp standard layout is not space saving.
Scheme R6RS for example is two column and per function there is very
little written. Functions are described in a few lines where the
Common Lisp standard uses a page or more.

The posting from Mr. James are getting increasingly insane.





From: vippstar on 13 Dec 2009 07:43
a troll said (among other foolish things!):
> Common Lisp 1000 or more
> COBOL 810
> ATLAS 790
> Fortran 77 430
> PL/I 420
> BASIC 360
> ADA 340
> Fortran 8x 300
> C 220
> Pascal 120
> DIBOL 90
> Scheme 50

On Dec 13, 2:27 pm, "jos...(a)corporate-world.lisp.de" <jos...(a)lisp.de>
wrote:
<snip>
> the numbers [of the previous post] are twenty years old. The Common Lisp standard has
> not changed since then.
>
> I have posted a few weeks ago updated numbers:
>
> C++                   1281
> Ada                    765
> Fortran                605
> C                      538
> Haskell 98             256
> ECMAScript/Javascript  241
> Scheme                 187
> Eiffel                 174
<snip>
> The posting from Mr. James are getting increasingly insane.

You have to love the symmetry. It'd be best if you all let the poor
thing alone. Or there could be a vote: anyone who reads comp.lang.lisp
for these numbers more than he'd read it for lisp, raise your hand.


From: francogrex on 13 Dec 2009 14:31
Mirko <mirko.vukovic(a)gmail.com> wrote in news:0789e9cd-4369-4a41-8a42-
8567d1af46c3(a)a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> The authors of recent lisp books need to think more about the books'
> titles. Look at these two:
>
> - Let over Lambda (own it)
> - Land of Lisp (will try to get it)
>
> What do they have in common? The same acronym as `lots of laughs':
> LOL.

It's good that you have observed that. though I doubt the authors of the
book had bad intentions, they probably didn't even realize.

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