Lisp vs. Common Lisp
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From: ok on 12 Jun 2010 15:53 On 12 Giu, 20:06, Simon <o.si...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > <paulgraham> > « Historically, Lisp has been good at letting hackers have their way. > The political correctness of Common Lisp is an aberration. Early Lisps > let you get your hands on everything. » > > « A really good language should be both clean and dirty: cleanly > designed, with a small core of well understood and highly orthogonal > operators, but dirty in the sense that it lets hackers have their way > with it. C is like this. So were the early Lisps. » His (PG) preferred Lisp dialect is Scheme. But Scheme is only a "scheme" (that is, all Scheme implementations need to add some library to make it a practical language). PG does not use Scheme for his projects either. He uses an implementation with "batteries included". And Common Lisp is simply a Lisp with a base library already included... --
From: Dan Weinreb on 12 Jun 2010 16:30 I have no idea what he means by "political correctness" when applied to Common Lisp. It lets you get your hands on everything just as much as any early Lisp. -- Dan
From: Rainer Joswig on 12 Jun 2010 17:31 In article <87vd9orqly.fsf(a)kuiper.lan.informatimago.com>, pjb(a)informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) wrote: > Giovanni Gigante <giov(a)cidoc.iuav.it> writes: > > > Simon wrote: > >> I'm deeply interested in Lisp. I'm learning it through Peter Seibel's > >> PCL. > >> > >> One comment I find a lot when people talk about Lisp is that Lisp is > >> wonderful, but CL has a lot of problems (problems I cannot understand > >> due to my newbieness). Now, I don't want to learn the wrong Lisp. > >> > >> What do people mean by Lisp in this context? Is it Lisp 1, Lisp 1.5, > >> the particular dialect they used and fall in love with? > >> > >> If this unidentified Lisp is so great, why don't they use it and avoid > >> all the pitfalls of CL? > > > > > > From a still-partly-newbie: > > > > There is no Lisp per se, nor "unidentified lisp". Lisp is a family of > > languages. > > > > The most evident feature of CL is that it's a very big language. This > > means that it's either "bloated"/"unelegant" or > > "feature-rich"/"industrial strength", depending on the point of view. > > This is wrong. > > In 1984-1986, when Common Lisp has been standardized, the standard > document was big, compared to other programming languages of that > time. But if you compared apples-to-apples, and oranges-to-oranges, > Common Lisp is actually as small a language as any other. CL was not standardized in 1984-1986. The language was developed from 1981 to 1984 in its first version. The book CLtL1 (1984) documented it, but it was not a standard in the sense that it was published by ANSI (or IEEE), which it was not. The language was actually not that big (if one looks at CLtL1 today) and CLtL1 was a nice book. The 'standard' then was developed later, from 1986 on by ANSI X3J13. .... -- http://lispm.dyndns.org/
From: Kenneth Tilton on 12 Jun 2010 17:57 Eric S wrote: > Simon <o.simon(a)gmail.com> wrote in news:a08412a9-16a6-4b11-ba4f- > fad745d4526f(a)g39g2000pri.googlegroups.com: > >> One comment I find a lot when people talk about Lisp is that Lisp is >> wonderful, but CL has a lot of problems (problems I cannot understand >> due to my newbieness). Now, I don't want to learn the wrong Lisp. > > The problems people perceive in CL are mostly caused by not learning it > very well. It's extremely powerful, but you have to understand a lot of > abstract ideas to really understand it in depth and be able to make the > best use of it. Nonsense. Dripping hot putrid nonsense. CL is interactive, friendly, and utterly predictable. aka approachable, aka easy. You just need to build an extra bookshelf to hold the index. kt -- http://www.stuckonalgebra.com "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself." Macworld
From: Wade on 12 Jun 2010 18:51
They mean the abstract Lisp, the one for which no implementation exists and thus has no problems. Its an utopian psychological projection. Beautiful as a flawless crystal. Its the future http://www.paulgraham.com/hundred.html or http://www.dreamsongs.com/Feyerabend/Feyerabend.html Wade |