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From: Joseph M. Newcomer on 4 Mar 2010 00:43 See below... On Wed, 03 Mar 2010 11:23:20 -0500, Hector Santos <sant9442(a)nospam.gmail.com> wrote: >Mikel wrote: > >> But why is there an ellipsis? My main display is 1600 pixels wide. I'm >> sure there's more than enough room for most paths there. So why do we >> need an ellipsis, if we could have the whole path? > > >Relative paths for the project work space files. **** I work with a system that does this. The problem is that sometimes I forget which project I'm working in, and I think the full path is the only reasonable display format. **** > >The basic idea is that you could move the folder somewhere else and >everything will load correctly. Its also shorter, really somewhat >independent of the display space, but it an help. Also, it helps with >distribution a source code package. When its relative, you can >download it, unzip and if the author didn't hardcode FQPN(Fully >Qualified Path Names), then it should compile, link and run without a >problem. Without relative paths, it would be a pain for people to >share code. **** Note that we are not talking here about what goes INTO the project, but how the information is DISPLAYED for ANY GIVEN INSTANCE of a project. Of course you use relative paths inside the project, but I really, really, REALLY need to know that I'm in the c:\thing directory and not the i:\thing directory. So when I see a filename displayed it is c:\CustomerName\Thing\Library\Project1 but my client, after they install the code, see it as i:\Thing\Library\Project1 Do not confuse references with display of information. **** > >When you add a file to a project, the ide will automatically >create/extract the relative path. It will keep the full path if its a >"far" path (as oppose to near/within the sub-folder space). **** Actually, for reasons that have never made sense and continue to fail to make sense even in the 2010 beta, if I create a new file, and go to save it, it wants to put it in some bizarre path that is under "My Projects" or some stupid default name hardwired in, instead of to the project for which I right-clicked "Add New>File". The default is a stupid name, and the fact that I am *actively working in a project* suggests that *that* is the project to which I wish to add the file. It's almost as bad as the "My Documents" fixation they have. **** > >When you view the property of files, it will show the relative path >and the calculated full path (which you can't change, dumb.) **** But when I ask for "recent files" or "recent projects", it won't show the complete path. Office does it, VS does it, the whole idea is first-class stupidity. SHOW ME THE ENTIRE PATH! I thought this was a Bad Idea the first time I saw it, and it continues to be a Bad Idea. It has NEVER made sense. joe **** Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP] email: newcomer(a)flounder.com Web: http://www.flounder.com MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
From: Joseph M. Newcomer on 4 Mar 2010 00:56 And anyone who has even a passing acquaintance with cognitive psychology has heard of something called "focus of attention", which says "People see what they are looking at. They do not work well when they have to look elsewhere to see what is going on". Fundamental GUI design says that the status bar display is a Really Bad Idea, because it is (a) somewhere other than where you are looking, (b) somewhere other than where you are looking and (c) somewhere other than where you are looking. [There are three major factors that sell a house: location, location, and location] I worked to kill off at least two designs I was involved in because they ASSUMED that the user could watch two different sides of the screen at the same time. On one I succeeded, and the GUI was really quite pleasant to use. The product sold well, but didn't survive the Win16-toWin32 transition (the company moved on and didn't see a market in porting the old product). In another project several years later, they ignored me, and the design was not only a flop, but it was so bad nobody wanted to buy the product, and the company failed. [I know this because one of the programmers who worked there later told me that the single greatest complaint was the distirbuted-state GUI where you had to look EVERYWHERE to see what was going on, and nearly everyone who took the "free trial" just didn't buy. When asked why, they uniformly said "the GUI sucks". Well, actually, it was MS-DOS, and the GUI was going to be lame anyway, but no, this one REALLY sucked, even for an MS-DOS GUI! "We should have listened to you," was his observation] It isn't limited to bad software design; a friend who took aerobatic flying lessons got into her first aircraft with variable-pitch prop. The instructor said "It's easy. You just keep the manifold vacuum gauge at the same position as the prop pitch indicator [I think those were the two indicators...] and you are golden", and her remark was that this was obviously easy to do because the gauges were on OPPOSITE sides of the instrument panel. Why do we have a mouse cursor that changes shape with the mode? Because THAT IS WHERE WE ARE LOOKING! They used to display the mode in the status bar, or in a static control, or something like that, but it never worked. Changing the cursor shape always works right, because THAT IS WHERE WE ARE LOOKING. joe On Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:58:28 -0800, "David Ching" <dc(a)remove-this.dcsoft.com> wrote: >"Joseph M. Newcomer" <newcomer(a)flounder.com> wrote in message >news:efuso5d4o4g6sed51o39hvq5ef71l93op5(a)4ax.com... >> Actually, the file menu doesn't give full information, either. >> > >BTW, the Start Page gives the full path in the status bar at the bottom as >you mouse over the project name in the start page. > >-- David Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP] email: newcomer(a)flounder.com Web: http://www.flounder.com MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
From: Hector Santos on 4 Mar 2010 05:29 Joseph M. Newcomer wrote: >> When you add a file to a project, the ide will automatically >> create/extract the relative path. It will keep the full path if its a >> "far" path (as oppose to near/within the sub-folder space). > **** > Actually, for reasons that have never made sense and continue to fail to make sense even > in the 2010 beta, if I create a new file, and go to save it, it wants to put it in some > bizarre path that is under "My Projects" or some stupid default name hardwired in, instead > of to the project for which I right-clicked "Add New>File". The default is a stupid name, > and the fact that I am *actively working in a project* suggests that *that* is the project > to which I wish to add the file. > > It's almost as bad as the "My Documents" fixation they have. I haven't seen VS2010 yet but I will say I am not looking for new surprises. > **** >> When you view the property of files, it will show the relative path >> and the calculated full path (which you can't change, dumb.) > **** > But when I ask for "recent files" or "recent projects", it won't show the complete path. > Office does it, VS does it, the whole idea is first-class stupidity. SHOW ME THE ENTIRE > PATH! I thought this was a Bad Idea the first time I saw it, and it continues to be a Bad > Idea. It has NEVER made sense. Well, devil's advocate: I don't need to see the whole path. If it shows just the file name, thats good enough for me to know its in the main project source folder. For me, that is why I desired a "more" productive Start Page where most of the intuitive stuff needs a quick "switch on" memory recall. There is also a considering for a "Quick Properties" dialog where the basic primitive stuff are presented - the "RISC" version of Project Properties. We have in our p-code IDE: Project Name: Project File Name: Project Direction Location: Optional Main Primary File: Output Folder: Include Directories: Library Directories: Honestly, what I don't like and I believe VS2005 still has this issue or less, is when you ADD more files into the projects. Its using the Common Dialogs like open file to the the file names and and if you go to a different folder, it is remembered. So its not restoring the current project folder. I think it got better with VS2005 or it seems to depend on something I don't seem to recall what it would be. The problem know is that when you use relative paths, the compiling (resolving the files locations) can be off. For example, under VS6, if I add a new source file/header via the open dialog the IDE implements, I have to remember to repeat it, go back to the source folder, pick a file that is already there or maybe cancel it and it remembers again. That could also be related to the IDE need to create/recreate the workspace file or solution (.DSW, *.SLN) and you can MULTIPLE of these. -- HLS
From: David Ching on 4 Mar 2010 14:03 Sorry Joe, if you haven't gotten into the habit of looking at the status bar for useful info by now, well, ... how long has the status bar been there? But wasn't it also you who didn't know about the down arrow on the right side of the Open button in the File Open dialog to open the file as resources in Visual Studio? I think you have many valid ideas about good UI, but the fact is situations that bother you simply don't bother the vast majority of Visual Studio users. -- David "Joseph M. Newcomer" <newcomer(a)flounder.com> wrote in message news:16iuo5dmf1k3amg2o9dcc1b9jcju76mgiq(a)4ax.com... > And anyone who has even a passing acquaintance with cognitive psychology > has heard of > something called "focus of attention", which says "People see what they > are looking at. > They do not work well when they have to look elsewhere to see what is > going on". > Fundamental GUI design says that the status bar display is a Really Bad > Idea, because it > is (a) somewhere other than where you are looking, (b) somewhere other > than where you are > looking and (c) somewhere other than where you are looking. [There are > three major factors > that sell a house: location, location, and location] > > I worked to kill off at least two designs I was involved in because they > ASSUMED that the > user could watch two different sides of the screen at the same time. On > one I succeeded, > and the GUI was really quite pleasant to use. The product sold well, but > didn't survive > the Win16-toWin32 transition (the company moved on and didn't see a market > in porting the > old product). In another project several years later, they ignored me, > and the design was > not only a flop, but it was so bad nobody wanted to buy the product, and > the company > failed. [I know this because one of the programmers who worked there > later told me that > the single greatest complaint was the distirbuted-state GUI where you had > to look > EVERYWHERE to see what was going on, and nearly everyone who took the > "free trial" just > didn't buy. When asked why, they uniformly said "the GUI sucks". Well, > actually, it was > MS-DOS, and the GUI was going to be lame anyway, but no, this one REALLY > sucked, even for > an MS-DOS GUI! "We should have listened to you," was his observation] > > It isn't limited to bad software design; a friend who took aerobatic > flying lessons got > into her first aircraft with variable-pitch prop. The instructor said > "It's easy. You > just keep the manifold vacuum gauge at the same position as the prop pitch > indicator [I > think those were the two indicators...] and you are golden", and her > remark was that this > was obviously easy to do because the gauges were on OPPOSITE sides of the > instrument > panel. > > Why do we have a mouse cursor that changes shape with the mode? Because > THAT IS WHERE WE > ARE LOOKING! They used to display the mode in the status bar, or in a > static control, or > something like that, but it never worked. Changing the cursor shape > always works right, > because THAT IS WHERE WE ARE LOOKING. > joe > > On Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:58:28 -0800, "David Ching" > <dc(a)remove-this.dcsoft.com> wrote: > >>"Joseph M. Newcomer" <newcomer(a)flounder.com> wrote in message >>news:efuso5d4o4g6sed51o39hvq5ef71l93op5(a)4ax.com... >>> Actually, the file menu doesn't give full information, either. >>> >> >>BTW, the Start Page gives the full path in the status bar at the bottom as >>you mouse over the project name in the start page. >> >>-- David > Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP] > email: newcomer(a)flounder.com > Web: http://www.flounder.com > MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
From: BobF on 4 Mar 2010 15:16
David - I was unaware of this option. I downloaded, installed and setup a couple of forums to test. Thanks for posting. David Ching wrote: > > Microsoft has been writing very good newsreaders for many years starting > with Outlook Express and continuing now with Windows Live Mail. I find > these newsreaders much more usable than Agent. > > I forgot what web forums you are discussing, but if they are the > Microsoft forums, check out http://connect.microsoft.com/MicrosoftForums > > It lets you use a newsreader instead of the web interface. People have > reported various levels of success; the best success is with the > Microsoft newsreaders. Not so much with Agent. To the Agent users: > you will probably find using the the Windows newsreaders + Bridge > preferable to using web interface. So even though your beloved Agent > doesn't work well, the Bridge is still better than accessing the web > inteface directly. > > -- David |