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From: Marshall Barton on 29 Apr 2010 10:51
neil40(a)btinternet.com wrote:

>On 28 Apr, 14:56, Marshall Barton wrote:
>> nei...(a)btinternet.com wrote:
>> >On 28 Apr, 02:25, "Larry Linson" <boun...(a)localhost.not> wrote:
>> >> Access does not have "entry order"; data in relational tables is, by
>> >> definition, unordered. You can sort on any field. �The simplest approach for
>> >> "entry order" is to include a date-and-time field when entered, and to sort
>> >> on that.
>>
>> >> For other non-alphabetic sorts, you could define a table which contains the
>> >> field value from the reference table and a numeric "sort order" field. Join
>> >> these in the Query, and sort on the "sort order" field.
>>
>> >> I trust you are aware that the order in the table or query that is Record
>> >> Source of a Report is immaterial. �The Report information is sorted
>> >> according to the Report's Sorting and Grouping properties.
>>
>> >> "nei...(a)btinternet.com" wrote
>> >> > In a League Table report I have the following layout
>> >> > Season Header - Group on 'Season' (EG 1948)
>> >> > League Header - Group on 'League' (A to Z)
>> >> > Detail - Sort by 'League Position'
>>
>> >> > In the table, the League name comes from a separate table and on the
>> >> > Input form is available from a Drop-down control that is an after
>> >> > event of picking the season 'year'
>>
>> >> > Leagues are ranked in the real world by importance (Senior teams,
>> >> > junior teams, trainee teams etc)
>> >> > I input data each year in that order
>>
>> >> > My problem - I want to sort the Leagues such that the report outputs
>> >> > in the order I have added them to the table (is this not a wise
>> >> > strategy?) rather than the Alpha A-Z sort
>> >> > For example
>> >> > for a particular year, I might have
>> >> > Natoinal League 1
>> >> > National League 2
>> >> > Metropolitain League
>>
>> >> > This is their order of seniority, but at present the Metropolitain
>> >> > League is printing as the first (as letter 'M' is ranking above 'N'
>>
>> >> > What's the best strategy to remedy this/rank in the order I want them?
>>
>> >I think I kind of knew that you couldn't sort that way.
>>
>> >Your suggestion of a date field seems good, and a quick search of this
>> >group seems to suggest I could use Date() or Now()
>>
>> >However, do existing records have a 'hidden' date stamp?
>> >I already have 500+ records in the table, and it would be desirable
>> >that these existing records bear the timestamp they were entered?
>> >If I add a field and use Date or Now, will it not give them all the
>> >same time/date?
>>
>> >Going forward, the row would obviously pick up the date stamp of 'now'
>> >as it is entered, which is fine, but to make this sort work I need to
>> >use the date of when those 500 records were entered.
>> >Is it possible?
>>
>> The order the data was entered is not a attribute of the
>> entities your seasons table is modeling. �IOW, using that as
>> the sorting mechanism is a bad idea. �Instead, you should
>> use Larry's other idea about a little separate Leagues table
>> with the league id, league name/description and sorting
>> fields.
>>
>> Your existing seasons table should only refer to the league
>> id field and not contain any orher information about the
>> league.
>>
>
>OK, well here's how I structured it all, rightly or wrongly - would
>value opinions
>tblseason
>Fields are ID/seasonfld/leaguefld/rank
>
>Note - I added 'rank' in the last day or so with a thought at trying
>to use that to order the leaugues as I want them.
>seasonfld holds the year (1929/30/31 etc etc)
>leaguefld holds the League names for these years
>rank hold 1, 2, 3 etc
>
>tblteams
>Fields - ID/Teamname/nickname/etc etc
>
>I have a Continuous form for input called MultiLgeInput and this is
>updating another table called
>
>tbltest
>Fields are ID/Team/Season/League/played/won/drawn/lost/for/against/
>position
>
>The form uses some Drop down controls that
>a) Allow selection of the Team name from tblteams
>b) Allow selection of the season from tblseason with an after event to
>c) Pick the League name from tblseason
>
>My report is then based on tbltest and sorts and groups as stated in
>the original post
>
>The rank field I added doesn;t yet feature as I'm not sure if/how I
>can integrate it at this stage or if I need to back track


Sorry, but I can't figure out what your tables are modeling.
I thought your original question was about sorting the
leagues, but you don't appear to have a leagues table with
information about each league. Your idea of the rank field
in the seasons table implies that you intend to sort the
leagues differently each season.

It's possible, but potentially difficult to manage, to use
league name in the seasons table and kind of implies that
the leagues and their names change every season. If not,
you will have a lot of problems should you ever need to
change a league name (eg. fix spelling, etc). As I said
before, the league name should only appear once in a leagues
table instead of many times in the seasons table. The
leagues table should be exclusivly used to hold league data,
including the sorting information needed to answer your
original question.

If you are having trouble getting your head around how to
design you tables to meet all your needs, I suggest that you
make a list of your objectives, including such things as
sorting the leagues. Then figure out what data you have or
need to add to meet those objectives and only then design
the appropriate tables to deal with all that. If you need
help with organizing the data tables, I suggest that the
best place to get it is in the tables design forum.

Once all that is properly set up, then you can start fixing
up your forms and reports. Right now, fooling around with
forms and reports is mostly wasted effort (except possibly
to highlight the need for additional data such as something
to assist sorting.)

--
Marsh
MVP [MS Access]
From: neil40 on 30 Apr 2010 09:40
On 29 Apr, 15:51, Marshall Barton <marshbar...(a)wowway.com> wrote:
> nei...(a)btinternet.com wrote:
> >On 28 Apr, 14:56, Marshall Barton  wrote:
> >> nei...(a)btinternet.com wrote:
> >> >On 28 Apr, 02:25, "Larry Linson" <boun...(a)localhost.not> wrote:
> >> >> Access does not have "entry order"; data in relational tables is, by
> >> >> definition, unordered. You can sort on any field.  The simplest approach for
> >> >> "entry order" is to include a date-and-time field when entered, and to sort
> >> >> on that.
>
> >> >> For other non-alphabetic sorts, you could define a table which contains the
> >> >> field value from the reference table and a numeric "sort order" field. Join
> >> >> these in the Query, and sort on the "sort order" field.
>
> >> >> I trust you are aware that the order in the table or query that is Record
> >> >> Source of a Report is immaterial.  The Report information is sorted
> >> >> according to the Report's Sorting and Grouping properties.
>
> >> >> "nei...(a)btinternet.com" wrote
> >> >> > In a League Table report I have the following layout
> >> >> > Season Header - Group on 'Season' (EG 1948)
> >> >> > League Header - Group on 'League' (A to Z)
> >> >> > Detail - Sort by 'League Position'
>
> >> >> > In the table, the League name comes from a separate table and on the
> >> >> > Input form is available from a Drop-down control that is an after
> >> >> > event of picking the season 'year'
>
> >> >> > Leagues are ranked in the real world by importance (Senior teams,
> >> >> > junior teams, trainee teams etc)
> >> >> > I input data each year in that order
>
> >> >> > My problem - I want to sort the Leagues such that the report outputs
> >> >> > in the order I have added them to the table (is this not a wise
> >> >> > strategy?) rather than the Alpha A-Z sort
> >> >> > For example
> >> >> > for a particular year, I might have
> >> >> > Natoinal League 1
> >> >> > National League 2
> >> >> > Metropolitain League
>
> >> >> > This is their order of seniority, but at present the Metropolitain
> >> >> > League is printing as the first (as letter 'M' is ranking above 'N'
>
> >> >> > What's the best strategy to remedy this/rank in the order I want them?
>
> >> >I think I kind of knew that you couldn't sort that way.
>
> >> >Your suggestion of a date field seems good, and a quick search of this
> >> >group seems to suggest I could use Date() or Now()
>
> >> >However, do existing records have a 'hidden' date stamp?
> >> >I already have 500+ records in the table, and it would be desirable
> >> >that these existing records bear the timestamp they were entered?
> >> >If I add a field and use Date or Now, will it not give them all the
> >> >same time/date?
>
> >> >Going forward, the row would obviously pick up the date stamp of 'now'
> >> >as it is entered, which is fine, but to make this sort work I need to
> >> >use the date of when those 500 records were entered.
> >> >Is it possible?
>
> >> The order the data was entered is not a attribute of the
> >> entities your seasons table is modeling.  IOW, using that as
> >> the sorting mechanism is a bad idea.  Instead, you should
> >> use Larry's other idea about a little separate Leagues table
> >> with the league id, league name/description and sorting
> >> fields.
>
> >> Your existing seasons table should only refer to the league
> >> id field and not contain any orher information about the
> >> league.
>
> >OK, well here's how I structured it all, rightly or wrongly - would
> >value opinions
> >tblseason
> >Fields are ID/seasonfld/leaguefld/rank
>
> >Note - I added 'rank' in the last day or so with a thought at trying
> >to use that to order the leaugues as I want them.
> >seasonfld holds the year (1929/30/31 etc etc)
> >leaguefld holds the League names for these years
> >rank hold 1, 2, 3 etc
>
> >tblteams
> >Fields - ID/Teamname/nickname/etc etc
>
> >I have a Continuous form for input called MultiLgeInput and this is
> >updating another table called
>
> >tbltest
> >Fields are ID/Team/Season/League/played/won/drawn/lost/for/against/
> >position
>
> >The form uses some Drop down controls that
> >a) Allow selection of the Team name from tblteams
> >b) Allow selection of the season from tblseason with an after event to
> >c) Pick the League name from tblseason
>
> >My report is then based on tbltest and sorts and groups as stated in
> >the original post
>
> >The rank field I added doesn;t yet feature as I'm not sure if/how I
> >can integrate it at this stage or if I need to back track
>
> Sorry, but I can't figure out what your tables are modeling.
> I thought your original question was about sorting the
> leagues, but you don't appear to have a leagues table with
> information about each league.  Your idea of the rank field
> in the seasons table implies that you intend to sort the
> leagues differently each season.
>
> It's possible, but potentially difficult to manage, to use
> league name in the seasons table and kind of implies that
> the leagues and their names change every season.   If not,
> you will have a lot of problems should you ever need to
> change a league name (eg. fix spelling, etc).  As I said
> before, the league name should only appear once in a leagues
> table instead of many times in the seasons table.  The
> leagues table should be exclusivly used to hold league data,
> including the sorting information needed to answer your
> original question.
>
> If you are having trouble getting your head around how to
> design you tables to meet all your needs, I suggest that you
> make a list of your objectives, including such things as
> sorting the leagues.  Then figure out what data you have or
> need to add to meet those objectives and only then design
> the appropriate tables to deal with all that.  If you need
> help with organizing the data tables, I suggest that the
> best place to get it is in the tables design forum.
>
> Once all that is properly set up, then you can start fixing
> up your forms and reports.  Right now, fooling around with
> forms and reports is mostly wasted effort (except possibly
> to highlight the need for additional data such as something
> to assist sorting.)
>
> --
> Marsh
> MVP [MS Access]- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Think I used 'Reply to author' Marsh
Hope you got it. Would you rather I had replied to the list

Neil
From: Marshall Barton on 1 May 2010 12:26
neil40(a)btinternet.com wrote:
>Think I used 'Reply to author' Marsh
>Hope you got it. Would you rather I had replied to the list
>

Yes. I finally found it and am adding it here.

>Perhaps I can explain a bit about what I am doing.
>
>The database is to record a history of Motor Cycle Speedway here in
>the UK - for the uninitiated, it's 4 men competing over 4 laps (2 per
>team) and 13 races that produces a result (Win lose or draw etc)
>Teams have come and gone, some still survive. Unlike some sports where
>League names are consistent (for example the 'Conferences' in NBA etc)
>so each team compete over the years in a variety of different League
>names.
>I am not recording the individual 'meet' result, but the end of season
>table
>The tblseason 'table' has the names of these Leagues
>So for example in 1928 there were 2 Leagues, recorded thus in the
>Access Table
>seasonfld leaguefld Rank
>1928 Northern League 1
>1928 Southern League 2
>1929 Northern League 1
>1929 Southern League 2
>.
>.
>1956 National League 1 1
>1956 National League 2 2
>1956 Metro League 3
>etc
>etc
>
>Quite complicated in structure. Early years the Leagues were 'equal'
>and teams competed in areas much like NBA conferences
>Later on, there are 'junior' Leagues
>For example as above, 1956
>NL 1 was the senior League, NL 2 a more 'Amateur' League and Metro the
>'baby' league.
>This has continued by and large to this day with similar structure but
>changing League names
>
>Thus, with what I have posted earlier, if I group and sort the Metro
>League comes on my report above NL 1 and 2. Not what I want (hence my
>attempt at adding 'Rank')
>
>The other 'team' table records the Teams venues, Trophies, Nicknames
>etc.
>
>The 'test' table was my attempt to record the end of season data, and
>the report I am seeking help with here, is to print/display annual
>Leagues (year per page)
>
>Thanks for your time, I'd be interested to know if you still belive
>structure is wrong.

With the league names being semi random, there's not much
use for a Leagues table. In that case, I guess adding the
rank field to the seasons table is ok. I don't like the
idea of having to add a rank number for every record, but I
don't readily see an easy way around it either.

Seems like with your Rank field, all you have to do is sort
the report on both the season and rank fields. That makes
the report trivally easy and maybe that's some kind of
compensation for entering all those rank numbers.

--
Marsh
MVP [MS Access]
From: neil40 on 1 May 2010 18:00
On 1 May, 17:26, Marshall Barton <marshbar...(a)wowway.com> wrote:
> nei...(a)btinternet.com wrote:
> >Think I used 'Reply to author' Marsh
> >Hope you got it. Would you rather I had replied to the list
>
> Yes.  I finally found it and am adding it here.
>
>
>
>
>
> >Perhaps I can explain a bit about what I am doing.
>
> >The database is to record a history of Motor Cycle Speedway here in
> >the UK - for the uninitiated, it's 4 men competing over 4 laps (2 per
> >team) and 13 races that produces a result (Win lose or draw etc)
> >Teams have come and gone, some still survive. Unlike some sports where
> >League names are consistent (for example the 'Conferences' in NBA etc)
> >so each team compete over the years in a variety of different League
> >names.
> >I am not recording the individual 'meet' result, but the end of season
> >table
> >The tblseason 'table' has the names of these Leagues
> >So for example in 1928 there were 2 Leagues, recorded thus in the
> >Access Table
> >seasonfld  leaguefld               Rank
> >1928         Northern League    1
> >1928         Southern League    2
> >1929         Northern League    1
> >1929         Southern League    2
> >.
> >.
> >1956         National League 1   1
> >1956         National League 2   2
> >1956         Metro League         3
> >etc
> >etc
>
> >Quite complicated in structure. Early years the Leagues were 'equal'
> >and teams competed in areas much like NBA conferences
> >Later on, there are 'junior' Leagues
> >For example as above, 1956
> >NL 1 was the senior League, NL 2 a more 'Amateur' League and Metro the
> >'baby' league.
> >This has continued by and large to this day with similar structure but
> >changing League names
>
> >Thus, with what I have posted earlier, if I group and sort the Metro
> >League comes on my report above NL 1 and 2. Not what I want (hence my
> >attempt at adding 'Rank')
>
> >The other 'team' table records the Teams venues, Trophies, Nicknames
> >etc.
>
> >The 'test' table was my attempt to record the end of season data, and
> >the report I am seeking help with here, is to print/display annual
> >Leagues (year per page)
>
> >Thanks for your time, I'd be interested to know if you still belive
> >structure is wrong.
>
> With the league names being semi random, there's not much
> use for a Leagues table.  In that case, I guess adding the
> rank field to the seasons table is ok.  I don't like the
> idea of having to add a rank number for every record, but I
> don't readily see an easy way around it either.
>
> Seems like with your Rank field, all you have to do is sort
> the report on both the season and rank fields.  That makes
> the report trivally easy and maybe that's some kind of
> compensation for entering all those rank numbers.
>
> --
> Marsh
> MVP [MS Access]- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks Marsh

As the rank field only currently exists, as an afterthought to try and
make this work, in my tblseasons, what is the best way to get it to my
existing report.

Somehow get it added to the tbltest that is updated as stated via
links to other tables and drop downs with after events? Maybe I could
add the rank field so that it fills in automatically when the League
is selected from tblseasons?
Via a query? Re-do the report?

Your advice, as always is most welcomed

Neil
From: Marshall Barton on 3 May 2010 12:28
neil40(a)btinternet.com wrote:

>On 1 May, 17:26, Marshall Barton wrote:
>> nei...(a)btinternet.com wrote:
>> >The database is to record a history of Motor Cycle Speedway here in
>> >the UK - for the uninitiated, it's 4 men competing over 4 laps (2 per
>> >team) and 13 races that produces a result (Win lose or draw etc)
>> >Teams have come and gone, some still survive. Unlike some sports where
>> >League names are consistent (for example the 'Conferences' in NBA etc)
>> >so each team compete over the years in a variety of different League
>> >names.
>> >I am not recording the individual 'meet' result, but the end of season
>> >table
>> >The tblseason 'table' has the names of these Leagues
>> >So for example in 1928 there were 2 Leagues, recorded thus in the
>> >Access Table
>> >seasonfld �leaguefld � � � � � � � Rank
>> >1928 � � � � Northern League � �1
>> >1928 � � � � Southern League � �2
>> >1929 � � � � Northern League � �1
>> >1929 � � � � Southern League � �2
>> >.
>> >.
>> >1956 � � � � National League 1 � 1
>> >1956 � � � � National League 2 � 2
>> >1956 � � � � Metro League � � � � 3
>> >etc
>> >etc
>>
>> >Quite complicated in structure. Early years the Leagues were 'equal'
>> >and teams competed in areas much like NBA conferences
>> >Later on, there are 'junior' Leagues
>> >For example as above, 1956
>> >NL 1 was the senior League, NL 2 a more 'Amateur' League and Metro the
>> >'baby' league.
>> >This has continued by and large to this day with similar structure but
>> >changing League names
>>
>> >Thus, with what I have posted earlier, if I group and sort the Metro
>> >League comes on my report above NL 1 and 2. Not what I want (hence my
>> >attempt at adding 'Rank')
>>
>> >The other 'team' table records the Teams venues, Trophies, Nicknames
>> >etc.
>>
>> >The 'test' table was my attempt to record the end of season data, and
>> >the report I am seeking help with here, is to print/display annual
>> >Leagues (year per page)
>>
>> With the league names being semi random, there's not much
>> use for a Leagues table. �In that case, I guess adding the
>> rank field to the seasons table is ok. �I don't like the
>> idea of having to add a rank number for every record, but I
>> don't readily see an easy way around it either.
>>
>> Seems like with your Rank field, all you have to do is sort
>> the report on both the season and rank fields. �That makes
>> the report trivally easy and maybe that's some kind of
>> compensation for entering all those rank numbers.
>
>As the rank field only currently exists, as an afterthought to try and
>make this work, in my tblseasons, what is the best way to get it to my
>existing report.
>
>Somehow get it added to the tbltest that is updated as stated via
>links to other tables and drop downs with after events? Maybe I could
>add the rank field so that it fills in automatically when the League
>is selected from tblseasons?
>Via a query? Re-do the report?


The report's record source query would have to be modified
to include the rank field and the report would have to be
modified to add the rank field to its sorting list. Both
very simple changes.

Adding the rank values to existing records in the table will
require a fair amount of manual work, if for no other reason
than to verify any automatic tricks you try to use. I think
I might start by using a series of Update queries similar
to:
UPDATE tblseasons
SET rank = 3
WHERE leaguename = "baby league"

After a half dozen or so of those, the seasons table should
be mostly fixed and the remaining changes can be done
manually without too much work.

In the future, your data entry form clearly would need a way
to enter the rank value via eiher a text or combo box or
whatever. Don't forget to add the rank field to the form's
record source query so you can the text/combo box bound.

--
Marsh
MVP [MS Access]
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