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From: Whiskers on 7 Apr 2010 14:43
On 2010-04-07, Fred <fred(a)no-email.here.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:25:00 +0100, Whiskers
> <catwheezel(a)operamail.com> wrote:
>
>>A debit or credit card is traceable, cash isn't.
>
> Why do they need to trace it, a top up is a top up?
>
>>I imagine that's the sort of thing they're concerned about. That is
>>'fraud' - you're taking the inducement (the cheap or free handset) but
>>ignoring your side of the contract, which is paying monthly instalments or
>>buying top-ups.
>
>>Yes. How else does a handset that costs (say) £100 if bought on its own,
>>come to be 'free' with a service contract? You'll also notice that 'sim
>>only' contracts cost a lot less per month than the deals that include a
>>handset.
>
> But this wasn't a question about contract phones, it was about PAYG
> phones and they can cost anything up to £400, which doesn't give the
> impression they are subsidized.

It certainly doesn't - at least not by a lot!

> This system only guarantees them that I pay for a £10 top up. I can
> still then throw away the sim and put another one in. So if the phones
> are subsidized, they are only getting ten pound and still losing the
> rest of the value of the phone.
>
> I find it hard to feel sorry for vodafone and o2. As I understand it
> asda uses vodafone and tesco uses o2, yet the supermarkets charge a
> fraction of their parent networks' costs.

I put this to a practical test this afternoon, in CPhW. I asked about
'handset only' prices on various models, and was told "get the PAYG offer
and pay the compulsory top-up, then discard the PAYG sim and use your
own." The assistant looked a bit blank when I suggested that that isn't
'playing the game', so presumably the telcos now only offer PAYG accounts
as a way of trapping a few customers into the perpetual top-up trap - and
guarantee a supply of still-sealed unregistered sim cards going to
land-fill. Daft, I call it ~:-)

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
From: Mark on 8 Apr 2010 05:10
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 19:43:07 +0100, Whiskers
<catwheezel(a)operamail.com> wrote:

>On 2010-04-07, Fred <fred(a)no-email.here.invalid> wrote:
>> On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:25:00 +0100, Whiskers
>> <catwheezel(a)operamail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>A debit or credit card is traceable, cash isn't.
>>
>> Why do they need to trace it, a top up is a top up?
>>
>>>I imagine that's the sort of thing they're concerned about. That is
>>>'fraud' - you're taking the inducement (the cheap or free handset) but
>>>ignoring your side of the contract, which is paying monthly instalments or
>>>buying top-ups.
>>
>>>Yes. How else does a handset that costs (say) £100 if bought on its own,
>>>come to be 'free' with a service contract? You'll also notice that 'sim
>>>only' contracts cost a lot less per month than the deals that include a
>>>handset.
>>
>> But this wasn't a question about contract phones, it was about PAYG
>> phones and they can cost anything up to �400, which doesn't give the
>> impression they are subsidized.
>
>It certainly doesn't - at least not by a lot!

IME many PAYG handsets are subsidised. Compare the price with a
similar sim-free (i.e. unlocked) handsets.

>> This system only guarantees them that I pay for a �10 top up. I can
>> still then throw away the sim and put another one in. So if the phones
>> are subsidized, they are only getting ten pound and still losing the
>> rest of the value of the phone.
>>
>> I find it hard to feel sorry for vodafone and o2. As I understand it
>> asda uses vodafone and tesco uses o2, yet the supermarkets charge a
>> fraction of their parent networks' costs.
>
>I put this to a practical test this afternoon, in CPhW. I asked about
>'handset only' prices on various models, and was told "get the PAYG offer
>and pay the compulsory top-up, then discard the PAYG sim and use your
>own." The assistant looked a bit blank when I suggested that that isn't
>'playing the game', so presumably the telcos now only offer PAYG accounts
>as a way of trapping a few customers into the perpetual top-up trap - and
>guarantee a supply of still-sealed unregistered sim cards going to
>land-fill. Daft, I call it ~:-)

CPhW sell most of their PAYG phones unlocked. Just use up the credit
and put in another sim. A lot of other retailers sell locked
handsets, where you would have to pay to unlock them.

To say this is to protect from fraud is bollocks. It's about making
more money.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

From: Whiskers on 8 Apr 2010 11:18
On 2010-04-08, Mark <i(a)dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 19:43:07 +0100, Whiskers
> <catwheezel(a)operamail.com> wrote:
>>On 2010-04-07, Fred <fred(a)no-email.here.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:25:00 +0100, Whiskers
>>> <catwheezel(a)operamail.com> wrote:

[...]

>>> This system only guarantees them that I pay for a £10 top up. I can
>>> still then throw away the sim and put another one in. So if the phones
>>> are subsidized, they are only getting ten pound and still losing the
>>> rest of the value of the phone.
>>>
>>> I find it hard to feel sorry for vodafone and o2. As I understand it
>>> asda uses vodafone and tesco uses o2, yet the supermarkets charge a
>>> fraction of their parent networks' costs.
>>
>>I put this to a practical test this afternoon, in CPhW. I asked about
>>'handset only' prices on various models, and was told "get the PAYG offer
>>and pay the compulsory top-up, then discard the PAYG sim and use your
>>own." The assistant looked a bit blank when I suggested that that isn't
>>'playing the game', so presumably the telcos now only offer PAYG accounts
>>as a way of trapping a few customers into the perpetual top-up trap - and
>>guarantee a supply of still-sealed unregistered sim cards going to
>>land-fill. Daft, I call it ~:-)
>
> CPhW sell most of their PAYG phones unlocked. Just use up the credit
> and put in another sim. A lot of other retailers sell locked
> handsets, where you would have to pay to unlock them.

I don't want to confuse people by using a different phone number from my
usual one, so the PAYG sim is of no use to me. Unless I meet someone
within the 90-day period allowed for registration who actually wants a new
mobile phone number, that sim is just waste (unless I decide to use it for
email or web-browsing, I suppose - and don't mind Vodaphone getting my
details or their hopes up).

> To say this is to protect from fraud is bollocks. It's about making
> more money.

Quite. But I'm pretty sure there was a time when PAYG handsets were
subsidised by the telcos, as a way to drum up business. Perhaps they no
longer feel the need to do that. These days even "basic" handsets seem to
have more "functions" than many people ever use (or know about!) and they
no longer cost a small fortune either.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
From: Steve Terry on 8 Apr 2010 23:39
"Fred" <fred(a)no-email.here.invalid> wrote in message
news:g6cpr59tas7kda3psttd5q4bs73f511mku(a)4ax.com...
> On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:25:00 +0100, Whiskers
> <catwheezel(a)operamail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> But this wasn't a question about contract phones, it was about PAYG
> phones and they can cost anything up to �400, which doesn't give the
> impression they are subsidized.
>
>
They are, sometimes by not much
Three shops used to put the (claimed) subsidy on the invoice

5 years ago i bought a basic NEC 313 PAYG for �30 and the invoice
claimed a phone subsidy of �100!

Steve Terry
--
Get a free Three 3pay Sim with �2 bonus after �10 top up
http://freeagent.three.co.uk/stand/view/id/5276


From: Jon on 9 Apr 2010 02:27
In article <8elor55i66hpf9s7v3estmim5o8q0bqod5(a)4ax.com>, fred(a)no-
email.here.invalid says...
> Hi,
>
> Looking at some PAYG phones I see that many require you to buy a
> top-up at the time of purchase. One site (I can't remember now, sorry)
> said the top-up was required "to prevent fraud". If you paid by card
> you needed to top-up with just £10 but if you paid by cash, they
> wanted a £20 top-up. What is fraudulent about buying a phone and why
> is buying it with cash apparently more fraudulent?
>
> Is it to stop you buying a vodafone handset and then putting in an o2
> sim? Does the network subsidize the handset?

It's to combat something called box-breaking, and yes the handsets are
subsidised.
--
Regards
Jon
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