PCB multiple designs surcharge
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From: linnix on 7 Feb 2010 16:53 Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this is just unnecessary hassle. I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4 designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
From: Joel Koltner on 8 Feb 2010 16:10 Hi D, "D Yuniskis" <not.going.to.be(a)seen.com> wrote in message news:hkptft$jno$1(a)speranza.aioe.org... > Assume I have two designs (or N designs -- where N is largest number > that can coexist on a panel). How is it any different than having > *one* design with: > - the greatest hole/part density > - the least hole/part density > if both of these designs would have been "based on average pricing"? It's based on intent: The "average" customer they *want* (who's submitting one design on the board) might submit a greatest hole/part density board one day, but they're expecting he'll submit a least hole/part density board the other, or some combination so that, over time, it averages out. The customer who's combining designs himself, they figure, is likely to continually do so and therefore *always* have boards that are above average in hole/part density. I would agree that if a board house is charging you based on a very detailed breakout of the design (number of holes, number of different hole sizes, sq. in. of board, sq. in of copper, aspect ratio of board, etc.), there's no longer any good reason to charge for multiple designs, but some board houses don't have the technology to do this automatically and therefore offer more "buffet" pricing -- particularly for prototype boards. (Advanced Circuits does this -- you pay the same for a prototype run of 3 PCBs that are 1"x2" as you do for 3 PCBs that are 4"x6"... and trust me, I feel a bit pinched in that my boards do tend to almost always run towards "tiny!") At the end of the day, it is just a slightly different business model that may or may not be the most acceptable to any given customer. With restaurants, buffets have a market (PCB houses where up to a certain size and number of holes, it's all the same price, they don't care at all how many designs are on the board), traditional restaurants have a market (PCB houses that have a very detailed algorithm for coming up with a board price, charging "bit by bit"), and then there's the "hybrid" buffet (often found on cruise ships!) where all the food is free but the drinks aren't as a means of loosely coupling how much you pay to how much you eat (PCB houses that charge per design). > I would argue that they might be more likely to look at this > as a "freebie" that they can give away for relatively low cost > to win/keep your business. (?) If the multiple designs are just a "step and repeat" (no different drills or copper usage) or relatively close to it and you used a reasonable shape, I would agree, and it's probably a successful tool. Many businesses seem to find it more successful to discount an artificially inflated price than to just offer a cheaper price in the first place (jewelry comes to mind...). ---Joel
From: linnix on 8 Feb 2010 16:31 On Feb 8, 1:10 pm, "Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgro...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Hi D, > > "D Yuniskis" <not.going.to...(a)seen.com> wrote in message > > news:hkptft$jno$1(a)speranza.aioe.org... > > > Assume I have two designs (or N designs -- where N is largest number > > that can coexist on a panel). How is it any different than having > > *one* design with: > > - the greatest hole/part density > > - the least hole/part density > > if both of these designs would have been "based on average pricing"? > > It's based on intent: The "average" customer they *want* (who's submitting one > design on the board) might submit a greatest hole/part density board one day, > but they're expecting he'll submit a least hole/part density board the other, > or some combination so that, over time, it averages out. The customer who's > combining designs himself, they figure, is likely to continually do so and > therefore *always* have boards that are above average in hole/part density. > > I would agree that if a board house is charging you based on a very detailed > breakout of the design (number of holes, number of different hole sizes, sq. > in. of board, sq. in of copper, aspect ratio of board, etc.), There are no significant differences in holes per area or hole sizes, since they are just different versions with different IC packages. Anyway, even if they charge extra for hole density, it is still much less than what they charge for multiple designs (a very subjective measurement). > there's no > longer any good reason to charge for multiple designs, but some board houses > don't have the technology to do this automatically and therefore offer more > "buffet" pricing -- particularly for prototype boards. Yes if within reasonable limit. How can you justify 30% more for 4 designs and 150% more for 8 designs? Why are design #5 to #8 so much more expensive than design #1 to #4? > (Advanced Circuits > does this -- you pay the same for a prototype run of 3 PCBs that are 1"x2" as > you do for 3 PCBs that are 4"x6"... and trust me, I feel a bit pinched in that > my boards do tend to almost always run towards "tiny!") > > At the end of the day, it is just a slightly different business model that may > or may not be the most acceptable to any given customer. With restaurants, > buffets have a market (PCB houses where up to a certain size and number of > holes, it's all the same price, they don't care at all how many designs are on > the board), traditional restaurants have a market (PCB houses that have a very > detailed algorithm for coming up with a board price, charging "bit by bit"), > and then there's the "hybrid" buffet (often found on cruise ships!) where all > the food is free but the drinks aren't as a means of loosely coupling how much > you pay to how much you eat (PCB houses that charge per design). > > > I would argue that they might be more likely to look at this > > as a "freebie" that they can give away for relatively low cost > > to win/keep your business. (?) > > If the multiple designs are just a "step and repeat" (no different drills or > copper usage) or relatively close to it and you used a reasonable shape, I > would agree, and it's probably a successful tool. Many businesses seem to > find it more successful to discount an artificially inflated price than to > just offer a cheaper price in the first place (jewelry comes to mind...). > > ---Joel
From: who where on 8 Feb 2010 19:33 On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 14:28:09 -0800, John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >We just got a batch of boards with a bad via, the same on all the >boards. Our gerbers look fine and we paid for bare-board testing. From?
From: who where on 8 Feb 2010 19:57
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 21:57:14 -0800 (PST), rickman <gnuarm(a)gmail.com> wrote: >I was once trying to get a board house to fab a PWB that was only 1 x >0.5 inches and wanted a few dozen on a panel and several panels. They >wanted to charge me *per board* at their minimum rate even if they >didn't rout or separate the boards. Their minimum rate was $4 per!!! >Needless to say I didn't use them. IIRC, there was more than one >place that insisted on charging that way. Having just looked up recent orders for another post inthis thread, I noticed one ex PCBcart for 100 pieces 1.2" x 0.75". Tooling (setup) - which is a once-only charge with them unlike some fabs - $37.80. Per board (area) cost $0.57. All up cost $94.80 or 95c each. |