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From: B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson on 1 Aug 2010 09:14
On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 14:31:28 +0200, rotfl wrote:

> BeAr wrote:
>>You'll never understand... [snip]
>
> ROTFL. IYO. The comments you make this time round haven't been voiced
> before afaik, so it looks like you're making it up as you go along
> under pressure.

And you most eagerly don't point out, /which/ comments of my previous
posting you regard as new. - Just to make sure, that I don't point you
to a list of links, showing you that I (and other people) repeated the
same /over and over and over again/ during the last years.

What a fraud you are! :-(

BeAr
--
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
From: B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson on 1 Aug 2010 15:40
On Sun, 1 Aug 2010 15:52:36 +0000 (UTC), Bear Bottoms wrote:
[Citation order slightly changed for answers]

>> You had arguments with *regulars* of acf (Susan among them, yes). Most
>> of them *also* took/take part in the Pricelessware process. You'd have
>> had arguments with these regulars, /regardless/ a Pricelessware
>> process existed or not. Pricelessware has *nothing* to do with this.
>
> Sure it does. The argument wasn't so much about PowerDesk as it was "that
> group" (the PWH cult who was establishing their control of the group) was
> putting me in my place.

PowerDesk was just one thread out of several, where you had arguments
with afore mentioned regulars. During the last couple of years you should
have noticed, that you meet people with very different characters in
acf (actually: any group, for that matter). Some mix well, others clash
on every possible moment. It so happens, that your posting style didn't
go well with few regulars.

> You indicated that group regulars dish out abuse as if that is perfectly
> fine and normal behavior.

Loosing ones patience is never good. Regulars *should* show /especially/
long patience with newcomers and welcome them with open arms. But that's
just idealistic theory. In praxis, people may sit on their PC after a
hard working day with lots of problems. This can reflect in an answer
and can cause any kind of irritation. This is *not* meant as an /excuse/
for patronizing newcomers or constant arguments between regulars inside
a newsgroup. It is an /explanation/ of some(!) causes.

IMHO, it is important to accept this manifestation of human nature to a
degree. People don't like to be pointed at their weaknesses. Therefore,
interfering usually adds just fuel to the fire.

With regard to your situation in the PowerDesk thread (as an example
for your situation in 2006), my views are unchanged. (I posted them
before.) Susan shouldn't have posted in such an annoyed, patronizing
stile. And you should have cut the matter short and /precise(!)/ after
Susans first correction: �Yes, after a closer look at the website and
the license conditions, PowerDesk really *is* freeware at the moment.
The URL-part "trial" and the vanishing link at Softpedia made me think
otherwise. - Hopefully, the program will stay free and will not turn
into Payware soon.� (You wrote all this, eventually. But scattered
around a lot of postings, leaving the reader to second-guess, what
you possibly knew and meant at a given moment.)

Such a request (written with future knowledge) may sound artificial,
even ridiculous. But in fact, your often vague posting style (it is
usually not clear, which information you really evaluated before
posting and which conclusions you have drawn and wish to share with
others) *still* does not go well with quite a few posters (me included).
You are /bound/ to hit the wrong nerv with Susan, since she /lives/
precision. I'm analytically inclined, as well, but hopefully, a _bit_
more even-tempered... ;-)

> This is ACF, not pricelessware. You are in denial about the abuse this
> group has taken from them, both from the off-topic website business and
> the abuse they dish out to non-koolaid drinkers.

I'm well aware of problems, as I wrote on several occasions, before.
One is the amount of postings linked to the Pricelessware process,
especially postings on the /management/ of the process, the ISO's
or some websites. It would probably be good to keep most of this
*management traffic* out of acf. - Be it by mail, wiki or inside
another newsgroup. Alt.comp.pricelessware, unfortunately, was
created on the wrong position inside the Usenet hierarchy. *If*
using a newsgroup was an option, the position should be alongside
acf.discussion and acf.games. Necessary for the usage of such a
Newsgroup would be, that it is propagated with most Newsservers.

*But*: The discussion of the programs, of categories and eligibility,
and so on *has*, IMO, to take place *inside acf*. The discussion of
freeware programs (and of what freeware is and what it is not) is
*core* acf stuff and belongs here.

Answering questions and reading about new programs or updates now
and then is just an erratic approach to freeware. It /may/ result
in an improvement in the freeware toolset, everybody in this group
has on disk, bookmarked and/or stored in mind. But if we manage to
*again* achieve participation in a Pricelessware election like it
was ~5 years ago (or maybe even further improvement) we'll see an
annual /global revision/ of a quasi-complete freeware toolset by
assembling the best programs available for the most common tasks.
This exceeds the knowledge of any single participant in this group
and creates a worthwhile resource.

> Maybe you are in denial because you are part of it.

I'm *in hope*. (Still.)

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
From: B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson on 1 Aug 2010 17:18
On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:12:58 +0200, rotfl wrote:

>> rotfl wrote:
>>> ROTFL. IYO. The comments you make this time round haven't been voiced
>>> before afaik, so it looks like you're making it up as you go along
>>> under pressure.
>>
>>And you most eagerly don't point out, /which/ comments of my previous
>>posting you regard as new. - Just to make sure, that I don't point you
>>to a list of links, showing you that I (and other people) repeated the
>>same /over and over and over again/ during the last years.
>
> Your comments are ~difficult to understand.
> Anyway, your previous post alluded to there being all sorts of jolly
> good reasons for running PWH business on ACF. I have not seen them
> voiced in past debates that I've read about.

I told you before: Sciolism is worse than ignorance! :-(

> Here's one example of the bollix you wrote...
> (never raised by any other PWH groupy afaik)
>
> You mentioned one reason for PWH/PL is to say "thankyou" to freeware
> program authors. A very fine sentiment I'm sure. But it cannot be true

German proverb: "Weil nicht sein kann, was nicht sein darf..."
Rough English translation:
"It /has/ to be false, because I /dearly/ want it so..."

I told you to read back to 1999! Here we go to the very beginning of
Pricelessware:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.comp.freeware/browse_thread/thread/a5df371856bbd4f

Thread: "Another name for freeware" as a side-by-side thread to the first
voting thread for (back then) "The Big List", renamed after this thread
to Pricelessware List:
| mark:
| I was thinking the other day for an alternative name for freeware.
| Why? It just seems to belittle some of the fine programs out there.
| These programmers work their butts off on this stuff, it would be
| nice to call them something besides "freeware".
;--------
| Ectoplasm:
| How about "pricelessware?"
;--------
| mark:
| Sounds good, adds respect.
;--------
| Aguy:
| I have a brilliant idea. Why not have that best programs category programs
| be considered pricelessware. We could then e-mail the authors of these
| programs saying they were given the pricelessware award (or honorary
| mention) and someone could make a fancy graphic for it. What does everybody
| think?
;--------
| John Corliss:
| I think it's a great idea. It would give a little something back to the freeware
| authors which would encourage them to continue writing freeware. Maybe one the
| list of categories is finally agreed on, a form could be designed and downloaded
| to this newsgroup. Then anybody could download it, fill it in and then email it
| to an agreed upon address. The results could be compiled on an agreed upon date
| and then the best of each category listed in a post to this newsgroup. The
| various freeware groups could be advised of acf's (alt.comp.freeware) awards and
| would probably post results on their sites.
|
| Yup, a darn good idea, Aguy.
;--------
| mark:
| Simply said. perfect.

I mentioned this /several times/ to Pricelessware opponents during the last
years. I won't look up the postings done by other people. That's just too
much work. But here are some example from postings done by me:

From the license checking thread I already linked *twice* to you:

Message-ID: <5uct9f85hxg8.dlg(a)br.ederson.news.arcor.de>
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/9f9b5099887e7b14

| Considering all the above, it most likely is much easier for people who
| want to unrightfully make money from the efforts of freeware authors and
| acf Pricelessware selection participants, to just take the result lists
| from PL2008 (which include all download addresses) and create CD images
| of their own.
|
| Following Occam's razor, the effort that went in the CD creation and still
| goes into distribution is entirely altruistic. It is simply a way to say
| "thank you" to freeware authors by spreading word about their wonderful
| software. And it is a means to help people, who are in search for freeware.
| Again, this obviously is a display of gratitude for all the goodness that
| participants of the Pricelessware CD creation process received, receive,
| and will continue to receive themselves from the freeware-interested
| community.

From "Final Pricelessware 2008 List" thread:

Message-ID: <1malddp0azp2t.dlg(a)br.ederson.news.arcor.de>
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/f49027f9fb77c75b

| ***************************
| * Pricelessware List 2008 *
| ***************************
|
| The best of the best in Freeware
| Selected by 46 alt.comp.freeware participants
|
|
| The selection process for the Pricelessware List 2008 has come to a
| successful end... :-)
|
| Again, many thanks to the authors of all those outstanding programs!
| Special congratulations to all, whose programs got selected!

From "Pricelessware 2008 - Proposal and General Discussion" thread:

Message-ID: <1pf3tnp4biutj.dlg(a)br.ederson.news.arcor.de>
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.comp.freeware/browse_thread/thread/b54296b04c2d17cb

| Before we go into the details of the Pricelessware selection process, I'd
| like to use the opportunity (doubtless on behalf of all participants of the
| PL2008 election) to thank *all* freeware authors for their time and efforts
| spent to create the programs and for the generosity of releasing them as
| freeware! Regardless of whether a program is nominated or even selected as
| Pricelessware, or not - we deeply appreciate your work! :-)

From a discussion with Hummingbird earlier in 2008:

Message-ID: <p5o49oqagc9l.dlg(a)br.ederson.news.arcor.de>
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/bdf3fbdffba96d96

| In short: The Pricelessware election was born in acf, answers FAQ, helps
| those involved to better understand some outstanding freeware programs
| and learn about a manageable amount of new programs. It is a means to
| say Thank you! to freeware authors and also creates pointers to them
| for possible ways of improvement. The discussion is completely around
| freeware and therefore on-topic in acf.

;--------------------------------------

> a) there is evidence of program authors being viscously attacked on ACF
> and run off the newsgroup by PWH people (BB complained about this
> several times)

Maybe you look those cases up, yourself, instead of second-guessing.
And *if* you found any cases, check whether an individual or an
imaginary "cult" is responsible for any harsh reply. And while you're
looking for such cases, don't miss those, where BB had heated arguments
with freeware authors or purposeful denigrated their products (TablePro
comes to mind, for instance).

> b) there is evidence of their work being denigrated by nasty labels
> such as "nagware" or "crippleware"

Actually, those names sound cute compared to the limitations, some
authors invent to force people in paying a full version. Often, it
would be more truthful, to release that software as demo in the
first place...

> and c) �Q� hosts a CD.ISO of freeware for downloading by anyone anywhere
> in the world without any control, and yet some s/w is included without
> the author's explicit permission.

*None!* I presented you the link to the license checking thread *twice*,
already. And *again* a /third/ time here in this posting. If you would
repeat your false allegations in real life as stubborn as you do here
in Usenet, you'd face a lawsuit in no time.

EOD. :-(

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
From: rotfl on 2 Aug 2010 00:13
BeAr:
You didn't comment on this in my previous post:

>rotfl wrote:
>You and other Pricelessware groupies
>claim to have a God-given right to conduct PWH private website business
>on ACF and every comment you make starts from that premise. But I know
>it is a false premise and is shot thru by Usenet etiquette, simple
>logic/commonsense and the standard practice of ALL other websites.

I am right. Yes?
If you think not, please explain why ~100 other freeware websites do NOT
conduct their business on ACF. Or perhaps you would like them to???


-rotfl

From: B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson on 2 Aug 2010 00:45
On Mon, 02 Aug 2010 06:13:18 +0200, rotfl wrote:

>>rotfl wrote:
>>You and other Pricelessware groupies
>>claim to have a God-given right to conduct PWH private website business
>>on ACF and every comment you make starts from that premise. But I know
>>it is a false premise and is shot thru by Usenet etiquette, simple
>>logic/commonsense and the standard practice of ALL other websites.
>
> I am right. Yes?
> If you think not, please explain why ~100 other freeware websites do NOT
> conduct their business on ACF. Or perhaps you would like them to???

No. You are not. For the last time: Pricelessware was created in acf as
a project to assemble the best freeware for certain tasks (FAQ, reference,
thank-you to freeware authors, broader discussion about freeware than by
only answering questions or posting random news,...). The list grew too
large to be posted regularly to acf and was published on several websites.
Pricelessware.org was registered for easier access by an individual
(Genna). Pricelesswarehome.org was registered later by a couple of acf
participants to better share responsibility and access rights.

In contrast to other freeware websites exists PWH *only* as a tool for
acf related informationen, esp. for hosting the Pricelessware election
results.

And yes, IMHO, most of the /management/ discussion could take place
outside acf or at least should be labeled clearly. Yet, acf still has
to get general information about global decisions, because of the
direct linkage between website and newsgroup.

And yet again: Discussion about other freeware websites is also on-topic
in acf, as long as acf matters are effected: better access to freeware
(design), variety of programs (esp. missing ones), inclusion of the
Pricelessware selection results,...

Btw., I'm tired of you just groping around in the dark. I'll dedicate
my efforts to my real-life duties during the next couple of days.
That's a far better investment than conversing with someone ignorant
/on purpose/. :-(

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
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