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From: Tim Wescott on 6 Apr 2010 14:14 Dave wrote: > "Tim Wescott" <tim(a)seemywebsite.now> wrote in message > news:2NKdnQjvaq5L_CbWnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d(a)web-ster.com... >> Dave wrote: >>> "Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >>> news:ZLGdnb6RZtCI2CbWnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d(a)posted.internetamerica... >>>> Need to rewire (to add a ground) several outlets in my house, which will >>>> require that I locate the breaker serving each outlet. Wondering if I >>>> couldn't build my own circuit breaker identifier out of a 9VDC wall-wart >>>> and some junkbox parts. Am thinking I could just use the wall-wart to >>>> run a 10kHz oscillator, whose output would be picked up by the >>>> transformer in the wall-wart and injected into the line thereby. A >>>> simple receiver with a small coil antenna could be used at the breaker >>>> box to locate the breaker with the signal going through it. The breaker >>>> with the loudest signal would be the most likely one to shut off, to see >>>> if the signal stops. Bingo. Leave that breaker off, test the outlet >>>> (just to make sure) and then unhook the old wires and hook up the new >>>> wires to it before putting it back in the wall. Sounds simple. Any >>>> obvious holes in my reasoning? I'm all ears... >>>> >>>> And yes, I could buy a breaker identifier, but all the reasonably priced >>>> ones seem to have questionable results with some people, or are cheaply >>>> made. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>> Fox & hound, stately Wayne Manor? I cannot respond seriously to THIS >>> foolishness. I asked a reasonable question. Anyone who has serious >>> input is welcome to reply. Others will be happily ignored. I'm off to >>> get my Op Amp Cookook and my IC Timer cookbook out and raid my junkbox. >>> I'll let you know how it turns out. >> The gizmo (pair of gizmos, actually) that you're proposing to build are >> known in the trade as a "Fox and Hound". I believe there's even one bnand >> that's named that. The transmit side is the fox, the sniffer side is the >> hound. >> >> Building them for one house's worth of work, particularly on the mains >> wiring, is -- quite seriously -- a total waste of time. They're >> exceedingly handy if you're a telephone technician, though. >> >> So if you want to engage in foolishness from a time management >> perspective, get out your op-amp cookbook and have fun -- just remember >> that you're wasting time, and enjoy yourself. >> >> -- >> Tim Wescott >> Control system and signal processing consulting >> www.wescottdesign.com > > Haaaaah. Okay, my apologies. I thought the Fox and Hound reference was an > attempt at some sort of off humor. My mistake. I do apologize for jumping > to conclusions. > > I have been checking these devices out on Amazon.com and the local hardware > outlets, and decided that the only decent ones were $50.00 or more, which I > have a hard time justifying for the sole purpose of labeling my breaker box. > And I am not afraid of wasting time, as time is all I have (along with an > overflowing junk box.). Besides, saving money is not a waste of time to me. > I still have my toolbox and most of my equipment, and regularly fix things > for family and friends. So I figured this would merely be an addition to > the repertoire, and would be fun to build. > > So anyway, do any of you see any holes in the logic of what I suggested > (besides the time factor)? I have a ton of wall-warts, several 741s and > 555s, as well as transistors off all types galore. Not sure what I *don't* > have (besides the appropriately tuned sense of humor.) Open to suggestions > (that don't involve bodily orifices.) > > Thanks for the reality check, and again I am sorry I jumped so easily to > conclusions. > > Dave > > It's a moderately easy circuit to build. The good ones don't use a single frequency tone -- they switch, so the tone has a distinctive "beedle beedle beedle" warble to it. They also use a high-impedance input stage, so the signal will capacitively couple to the receiver before it actually makes contact -- this is exceedingly handy when you're sorting through a 25-pair bundle of wires looking for the one pair that goes to the second phone jack in the Boss's office! That high-impedance input stage is usually a FET preamplifier, you'd shave a lot of development time if you could find an example circuit on the web already. Much of the value in the professional gear is that it all comes packaged so that you can drop it off a 25' ladder onto concrete, pick it up, and use it. Think about that when you're planning on how to package yours. -- Tim Wescott Control system and signal processing consulting www.wescottdesign.com
From: Dave on 6 Apr 2010 15:16 "Tim Wescott" <tim(a)seemywebsite.now> wrote in message news:gqidnYawJ7Zn5CbWnZ2dnUVZ_qKdnZ2d(a)web-ster.com... > Dave wrote: >> "Tim Wescott" <tim(a)seemywebsite.now> wrote in message >> news:2NKdnQjvaq5L_CbWnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d(a)web-ster.com... >>> Dave wrote: >>>> "Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >>>> news:ZLGdnb6RZtCI2CbWnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d(a)posted.internetamerica... >>>>> Need to rewire (to add a ground) several outlets in my house, which >>>>> will require that I locate the breaker serving each outlet. Wondering >>>>> if I couldn't build my own circuit breaker identifier out of a 9VDC >>>>> wall-wart and some junkbox parts. Am thinking I could just use the >>>>> wall-wart to run a 10kHz oscillator, whose output would be picked up >>>>> by the transformer in the wall-wart and injected into the line >>>>> thereby. A simple receiver with a small coil antenna could be used at >>>>> the breaker box to locate the breaker with the signal going through >>>>> it. The breaker with the loudest signal would be the most likely one >>>>> to shut off, to see if the signal stops. Bingo. Leave that breaker >>>>> off, test the outlet (just to make sure) and then unhook the old wires >>>>> and hook up the new wires to it before putting it back in the wall. >>>>> Sounds simple. Any obvious holes in my reasoning? I'm all ears... >>>>> >>>>> And yes, I could buy a breaker identifier, but all the reasonably >>>>> priced ones seem to have questionable results with some people, or are >>>>> cheaply made. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Fox & hound, stately Wayne Manor? I cannot respond seriously to THIS >>>> foolishness. I asked a reasonable question. Anyone who has serious >>>> input is welcome to reply. Others will be happily ignored. I'm off to >>>> get my Op Amp Cookook and my IC Timer cookbook out and raid my junkbox. >>>> I'll let you know how it turns out. >>> The gizmo (pair of gizmos, actually) that you're proposing to build are >>> known in the trade as a "Fox and Hound". I believe there's even one >>> bnand that's named that. The transmit side is the fox, the sniffer side >>> is the hound. >>> >>> Building them for one house's worth of work, particularly on the mains >>> wiring, is -- quite seriously -- a total waste of time. They're >>> exceedingly handy if you're a telephone technician, though. >>> >>> So if you want to engage in foolishness from a time management >>> perspective, get out your op-amp cookbook and have fun -- just remember >>> that you're wasting time, and enjoy yourself. >>> >>> -- >>> Tim Wescott >>> Control system and signal processing consulting >>> www.wescottdesign.com >> >> Haaaaah. Okay, my apologies. I thought the Fox and Hound reference was >> an attempt at some sort of off humor. My mistake. I do apologize for >> jumping to conclusions. >> >> I have been checking these devices out on Amazon.com and the local >> hardware outlets, and decided that the only decent ones were $50.00 or >> more, which I have a hard time justifying for the sole purpose of >> labeling my breaker box. And I am not afraid of wasting time, as time is >> all I have (along with an overflowing junk box.). Besides, saving money >> is not a waste of time to me. I still have my toolbox and most of my >> equipment, and regularly fix things for family and friends. So I figured >> this would merely be an addition to the repertoire, and would be fun to >> build. >> >> So anyway, do any of you see any holes in the logic of what I suggested >> (besides the time factor)? I have a ton of wall-warts, several 741s and >> 555s, as well as transistors off all types galore. Not sure what I >> *don't* have (besides the appropriately tuned sense of humor.) Open to >> suggestions (that don't involve bodily orifices.) >> >> Thanks for the reality check, and again I am sorry I jumped so easily to >> conclusions. >> >> Dave >> >> > It's a moderately easy circuit to build. The good ones don't use a single > frequency tone -- they switch, so the tone has a distinctive "beedle > beedle beedle" warble to it. They also use a high-impedance input stage, > so the signal will capacitively couple to the receiver before it actually > makes contact -- this is exceedingly handy when you're sorting through a > 25-pair bundle of wires looking for the one pair that goes to the second > phone jack in the Boss's office! > > That high-impedance input stage is usually a FET preamplifier, you'd shave > a lot of development time if you could find an example circuit on the web > already. > > Much of the value in the professional gear is that it all comes packaged > so that you can drop it off a 25' ladder onto concrete, pick it up, and > use it. Think about that when you're planning on how to package yours. > > -- > Tim Wescott > Control system and signal processing consulting > www.wescottdesign.com Thanks Tim, I'm thinking I'll probably use an NTE451 for the JFET front end of the receiver, as I built something else with those at one point and believe I had the biasing worked out fairly well. I am guessing I will drive something like an NTE85 (an audio amp) with that and feed that output to a small meter movement I have sitting around for a visual indicator. For the fox part, I am expecting to drive an NTE199 (bipolar with a gain of around 400) with the 741 in astable mode, which is in turn driven by a 555 operating as a multivibrator at 10kHz. Or at least that's what I have in mind at this point. Also thinking I can tune the receiver with NTE618s (varactor with 10pF to >400pF characteristics with voltages varying from 9VDC to <1VDC) and an Amidon T50-2 toroid core that I will wind, probably with #24 single conductor insulated wire. Or, if I can, I'll try to make use of some 18uH toroids I saw recently at my candy store. This last half is the most speculative, I think, but I can work out the bugs when I get to them I expect. Thoughts are welcome. And thanks again for the explanatin of the fox & hound reference. Dave
From: Baron on 6 Apr 2010 16:37 Dave Inscribed thus: > > "Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:ZLGdnb6RZtCI2CbWnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d(a)posted.internetamerica... >> Need to rewire (to add a ground) several outlets in my house, which >> will >> require that I locate the breaker serving each outlet. Wondering if >> I couldn't build my own circuit breaker identifier out of a 9VDC >> wall-wart >> and some junkbox parts. Am thinking I could just use the wall-wart >> to run a 10kHz oscillator, whose output would be picked up by the >> transformer in >> the wall-wart and injected into the line thereby. A simple receiver >> with a small coil antenna could be used at the breaker box to locate >> the >> breaker with the signal going through it. The breaker with the >> loudest signal would be the most likely one to shut off, to see if >> the signal >> stops. Bingo. Leave that breaker off, test the outlet (just to make >> sure) and then unhook the old wires and hook up the new wires to it >> before >> putting it back in the wall. Sounds simple. Any obvious holes in my >> reasoning? I'm all ears... >> >> And yes, I could buy a breaker identifier, but all the reasonably >> priced ones seem to have questionable results with some people, or >> are cheaply made. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Dave >> >> > > Fox & hound, stately Wayne Manor? I cannot respond seriously to THIS > foolishness. I asked a reasonable question. Anyone who has serious > input is welcome to reply. Others will be happily ignored. I'm off > to get my Op Amp Cookook and my IC Timer cookbook out and raid my > junkbox. I'll let you know how it turns out. > > Take it easy... > > Dave In all seriousness, plugging in a radio and listening for it going quiet when you find the correct breaker works for me ! As does a lamp and checking for it going out. -- Best Regards: Baron.
From: Baron on 6 Apr 2010 16:41 Dave Inscribed thus: > > "Tim Wescott" <tim(a)seemywebsite.now> wrote in message > news:2NKdnQjvaq5L_CbWnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d(a)web-ster.com... >> Dave wrote: >>> "Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >>> news:ZLGdnb6RZtCI2CbWnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d(a)posted.internetamerica... >>>> Need to rewire (to add a ground) several outlets in my house, which >>>> will >>>> require that I locate the breaker serving each outlet. Wondering >>>> if I couldn't build my own circuit breaker identifier out of a 9VDC >>>> wall-wart >>>> and some junkbox parts. Am thinking I could just use the wall-wart >>>> to run a 10kHz oscillator, whose output would be picked up by the >>>> transformer in the wall-wart and injected into the line thereby. A >>>> simple receiver with a small coil antenna could be used at the >>>> breaker >>>> box to locate the breaker with the signal going through it. The >>>> breaker with the loudest signal would be the most likely one to >>>> shut off, to see >>>> if the signal stops. Bingo. Leave that breaker off, test the >>>> outlet (just to make sure) and then unhook the old wires and hook >>>> up the new >>>> wires to it before putting it back in the wall. Sounds simple. >>>> Any >>>> obvious holes in my reasoning? I'm all ears... >>>> >>>> And yes, I could buy a breaker identifier, but all the reasonably >>>> priced ones seem to have questionable results with some people, or >>>> are cheaply made. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Fox & hound, stately Wayne Manor? I cannot respond seriously to >>> THIS >>> foolishness. I asked a reasonable question. Anyone who has serious >>> input is welcome to reply. Others will be happily ignored. I'm off >>> to get my Op Amp Cookook and my IC Timer cookbook out and raid my >>> junkbox. I'll let you know how it turns out. >> >> The gizmo (pair of gizmos, actually) that you're proposing to build >> are >> known in the trade as a "Fox and Hound". I believe there's even one >> bnand >> that's named that. The transmit side is the fox, the sniffer side is >> the hound. >> >> Building them for one house's worth of work, particularly on the >> mains >> wiring, is -- quite seriously -- a total waste of time. They're >> exceedingly handy if you're a telephone technician, though. >> >> So if you want to engage in foolishness from a time management >> perspective, get out your op-amp cookbook and have fun -- just >> remember that you're wasting time, and enjoy yourself. >> >> -- >> Tim Wescott >> Control system and signal processing consulting >> www.wescottdesign.com > > Haaaaah. Okay, my apologies. I thought the Fox and Hound reference > was an > attempt at some sort of off humor. My mistake. I do apologize for > jumping to conclusions. > > I have been checking these devices out on Amazon.com and the local > hardware outlets, and decided that the only decent ones were $50.00 or > more, which I have a hard time justifying for the sole purpose of > labeling my breaker box. And I am not afraid of wasting time, as time > is all I have (along with an > overflowing junk box.). Besides, saving money is not a waste of time > to me. I still have my toolbox and most of my equipment, and regularly > fix things > for family and friends. So I figured this would merely be an addition > to the repertoire, and would be fun to build. > > So anyway, do any of you see any holes in the logic of what I > suggested (besides the time factor)? I have a ton of wall-warts, > several 741s and 555s, as well as transistors off all types galore. > Not sure what I *don't* have (besides the appropriately tuned sense of > humor.) Open to suggestions (that don't involve bodily orifices.) From a safety point of view, batteries may be better. > Thanks for the reality check, and again I am sorry I jumped so easily > to conclusions. > > Dave -- Best Regards: Baron.
From: John Larkin on 6 Apr 2010 18:27
On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 09:28:26 -0500, "Dave" <db5151(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >Need to rewire (to add a ground) several outlets in my house, which will >require that I locate the breaker serving each outlet. Wondering if I >couldn't build my own circuit breaker identifier out of a 9VDC wall-wart and >some junkbox parts. Am thinking I could just use the wall-wart to run a >10kHz oscillator, whose output would be picked up by the transformer in the >wall-wart and injected into the line thereby. A simple receiver with a >small coil antenna could be used at the breaker box to locate the breaker >with the signal going through it. The breaker with the loudest signal would >be the most likely one to shut off, to see if the signal stops. Bingo. >Leave that breaker off, test the outlet (just to make sure) and then unhook >the old wires and hook up the new wires to it before putting it back in the >wall. Sounds simple. Any obvious holes in my reasoning? I'm all ears... > >And yes, I could buy a breaker identifier, but all the reasonably priced >ones seem to have questionable results with some people, or are cheaply >made. > >Thanks, > >Dave > Why not use a kid? Plug a lamp into each outlet and station the kid, on a cell phone, to tell you if the lamp is on or off. You flip the breakers. No kid handy? Plug a space heater into one outlet at a time, go the the breaker box, measure currents with a clamp-on ammeter. John |