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From: Tiziano on 1 Jul 2010 00:42
I have this 11-year old PC and I am thinking about upgrading it by
installing an SSD (SATA).

The motherboard is a TYAN S1854 Trinity 400 Rev. 1.07. The BIOS is Award
Modular v4.51PG. The operating system is Windows XP Professional SP3.



Since this is an old PC, the motherboard does not have SATA ports, so I was
thinking about installing a PCI host controller card (SATA).



I fear that my old BIOS will not recognize the solid state drive, so I was
wondering if this upgrade is even possible. Maybe the host controller card
helps the BIOS in seeing the SSD?



The BIOS I have is very old and TYAN has not posted any newer versions since
the year 2000. Also, Award is no longer in business so I don�t know if a
newer BIOS version exists.



What do the experts think/suggest?



PS: I am fully aware that from the practical point of view it is not worth
spending money in upgrading an 11-year old PC. Nevertheless, I would like
to do it as a personal challenge. I have already installed more memory, a
faster microprocessor, and upgraded the graphics card too. Now I would like
to tackle the hard drive issue, but I do not want to spend money in new
parts only to find out that they won�t work at all because of the BIOS
issue�

--

tb


From: Paul on 1 Jul 2010 03:44
Tiziano wrote:
> I have this 11-year old PC and I am thinking about upgrading it by
> installing an SSD (SATA).
>
> The motherboard is a TYAN S1854 Trinity 400 Rev. 1.07. The BIOS is Award
> Modular v4.51PG. The operating system is Windows XP Professional SP3.
>
> Since this is an old PC, the motherboard does not have SATA ports, so I was
> thinking about installing a PCI host controller card (SATA).
>
> I fear that my old BIOS will not recognize the solid state drive, so I was
> wondering if this upgrade is even possible. Maybe the host controller card
> helps the BIOS in seeing the SSD?
>
> The BIOS I have is very old and TYAN has not posted any newer versions since
> the year 2000. Also, Award is no longer in business so I don�t know if a
> newer BIOS version exists.
>
> What do the experts think/suggest?
>
> PS: I am fully aware that from the practical point of view it is not worth
> spending money in upgrading an 11-year old PC. Nevertheless, I would like
> to do it as a personal challenge. I have already installed more memory, a
> faster microprocessor, and upgraded the graphics card too. Now I would like
> to tackle the hard drive issue, but I do not want to spend money in new
> parts only to find out that they won�t work at all because of the BIOS
> issue�
>

You can get adapters for converting SATA to work with an IDE cable.
So that would be one way to do it.

http://www.startech.com/item/IDE2SAT-25in-and-35in-40-Pin-Male-IDE-to-SATA-Adapter-Converter.aspx

The manual I have here on disk, for S1854, is dated 2001. The year
2003 is roughly when 48 bit LBA support came out for BIOSes. That
is only an issue if the SSD is bigger than 137GB. And even so, may
not prevent you from using it via the IDE cable.

Using a PCI SATA card might be less of a problem, but you're going
to need a driver for the card.

*******

When you buy a PCI storage card, the card has its own BIOS chip.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/15-102-102-S02?$S640W$

In that picture, the chip on the left, is an 32 pin PLCC flash chip
that holds a BIOS. The code in there, implements Extended INT 0x13
services. And those services, tell the BIOS how to boot from
the card. Sometimes, there is a BIOS entry, that enables
the loading of the BIOS from that chip, but I don't see an
"INT 0x13" or "INT 19" entry in your S1854 user manual.

That particular card, uses a Silicon Image SIL3112. There was
a bug in earlier BIOS code used with those, such that a
1TB sized SATA drive would cause the PC to freeze. There is actually
a flash tool available, to flash update code into the chip.
So the BIOS code in there can be corrected, if there is a
problem.

There are some instances, where a SATA card doesn't work in
an old PC. But those problems seemed to be with 440BX
vintage systems. Your machine might be new enough, for a PCI
storage card to be recognized and work.

The most expensive part of your upgrade is the SSD. If
the project doesn't work out, the expense of the PCI card
will be less than the SSD. You can use the SSD on
a newer system, later. So not all of the hardware you
buy, would be throwaway items.

One other thing you might need, is a power adapter cable
for the SSD. The PCI SATA card kit may include a SATA data
cable, but your power supply may be missing a SATA power
cable. You can use one of these, to convert a Molex power
plug, to provide SATA power.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812201002

Note that those are not a "perfect solution", as Molex
has +5V, +12V, while SATA has +3.3V, +5V, +12V. But currently,
there are very few SATA devices operating from 3.3V, so you
don't have anything to worry about today.

Paul
From: Gerard Bok on 1 Jul 2010 06:19
On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:42:48 -0500, "Tiziano"
<nospam(a)example.com> wrote:

>I have this 11-year old PC and I am thinking about upgrading it by
>installing an SSD (SATA).

>What do the experts think/suggest?

What is the maximum speed you expect this motherboard to support?
My guess: 33 MB/s.

So what do you expect to gain by replacing a HDD by SSD?
(Except from increasing the cost per gigabyte 100 fold or so.)

--
Kind regards,
Gerard Bok
From: Paul on 1 Jul 2010 08:49
Gerard Bok wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:42:48 -0500, "Tiziano"
> <nospam(a)example.com> wrote:
>
>> I have this 11-year old PC and I am thinking about upgrading it by
>> installing an SSD (SATA).
>
>> What do the experts think/suggest?
>
> What is the maximum speed you expect this motherboard to support?
> My guess: 33 MB/s.
>
> So what do you expect to gain by replacing a HDD by SSD?
> (Except from increasing the cost per gigabyte 100 fold or so.)
>

The seek time is better on the SSD. And the PCI bus can operate
at 110-120MB/sec or so. The PCI bus is also used to connect
the Northbridge to the Southbridge.

VIA Apollo Pro 133 VT82C694X + VT82C596B

http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/chipsets/legacy/pro133a/

*******

For fun, I tried the forums for an equivalent motherboard, Asus P3V4X,
and there seem to be problems with add-in cards. So it is possible
that adding a PCI SATA card, won't be that easy. Maybe add the PCI
controller card first, and then buy the SSD if it seems to be working
well.

http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx?board_id=1&model=P3V4X&SLanguage=en-us

The chipset only supports UDMA 66, so using the SATA to IDE adapter,
wouldn't perform as well.

Paul
From: ~misfit~ on 1 Jul 2010 09:00
Somewhere on teh intarwebs Paul wrote:
> Tiziano wrote:
>> I have this 11-year old PC and I am thinking about upgrading it by
>> installing an SSD (SATA).
>>
>> The motherboard is a TYAN S1854 Trinity 400 Rev. 1.07. The BIOS is
>> Award Modular v4.51PG. The operating system is Windows XP
>> Professional SP3. Since this is an old PC, the motherboard does not have
>> SATA ports,
>> so I was thinking about installing a PCI host controller card (SATA).
>>
>> I fear that my old BIOS will not recognize the solid state drive, so
>> I was wondering if this upgrade is even possible. Maybe the host
>> controller card helps the BIOS in seeing the SSD?
>>
>> The BIOS I have is very old and TYAN has not posted any newer
>> versions since the year 2000. Also, Award is no longer in business
>> so I don�t know if a newer BIOS version exists.
>>
>> What do the experts think/suggest?
>>
>> PS: I am fully aware that from the practical point of view it is
>> not worth spending money in upgrading an 11-year old PC. Nevertheless, I
>> would like to do it as a personal challenge. I have
>> already installed more memory, a faster microprocessor, and upgraded
>> the graphics card too. Now I would like to tackle the hard drive
>> issue, but I do not want to spend money in new parts only to find
>> out that they won�t work at all because of the BIOS issue�
>>
>
> You can get adapters for converting SATA to work with an IDE cable.
> So that would be one way to do it.
>
> http://www.startech.com/item/IDE2SAT-25in-and-35in-40-Pin-Male-IDE-to-SATA-Adapter-Converter.aspx
>
> The manual I have here on disk, for S1854, is dated 2001. The year
> 2003 is roughly when 48 bit LBA support came out for BIOSes. That
> is only an issue if the SSD is bigger than 137GB. And even so, may
> not prevent you from using it via the IDE cable.
>
> Using a PCI SATA card might be less of a problem, but you're going
> to need a driver for the card.
>
> *******
>
> When you buy a PCI storage card, the card has its own BIOS chip.
>
> http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/15-102-102-S02?$S640W$
>
> In that picture, the chip on the left, is an 32 pin PLCC flash chip
> that holds a BIOS. The code in there, implements Extended INT 0x13
> services. And those services, tell the BIOS how to boot from
> the card. Sometimes, there is a BIOS entry, that enables
> the loading of the BIOS from that chip, but I don't see an
> "INT 0x13" or "INT 19" entry in your S1854 user manual.
>
> That particular card, uses a Silicon Image SIL3112. There was
> a bug in earlier BIOS code used with those, such that a
> 1TB sized SATA drive would cause the PC to freeze. There is actually
> a flash tool available, to flash update code into the chip.
> So the BIOS code in there can be corrected, if there is a
> problem.
>
> There are some instances, where a SATA card doesn't work in
> an old PC. But those problems seemed to be with 440BX
> vintage systems. Your machine might be new enough, for a PCI
> storage card to be recognized and work.

I have and old 440BX board with a Slot-T adapter / Tualatin 1.3GHz / 512MB
ECC SDRAM / XP Pro that I use as a test-bed. It has a SATA PCI card (that
also has an ATA133 PATA connector) in it that works flawlessly as well as an
ultra-wide SCSI PCI card. It's handy as I can use it to check out most any
type of HDD / optical drive. It's set up in an open desktop (non-tower) type
case, easy to access.

> The most expensive part of your upgrade is the SSD. If
> the project doesn't work out, the expense of the PCI card
> will be less than the SSD. You can use the SSD on
> a newer system, later. So not all of the hardware you
> buy, would be throwaway items.
>
> One other thing you might need, is a power adapter cable
> for the SSD. The PCI SATA card kit may include a SATA data
> cable, but your power supply may be missing a SATA power
> cable. You can use one of these, to convert a Molex power
> plug, to provide SATA power.
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812201002
>
> Note that those are not a "perfect solution", as Molex
> has +5V, +12V, while SATA has +3.3V, +5V, +12V. But currently,
> there are very few SATA devices operating from 3.3V, so you
> don't have anything to worry about today.

It's my understanding that the 3.3V is only needed for true hot-swapping of
SATA HDDs such as when they're used in a RAID array. I could be wrong
though, I haven't Googled it. :-)
--
Cheers,
Shaun.

"When we dream.... that's just our brains defragmenting" G Jackson.


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