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From: Future_News on 22 Oct 2009 00:45
On Oct 21, 7:58 pm, Gordon Stangler <gordon.stang...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 21, 6:50 pm, Tegiri Nenashi <tegirinena...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 21, 3:44 pm, cplxphil <cplxp...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > > Also, I'm curious...is Future_News Musatov?  A Google search revealed
> > > that this text is from another website:http://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~wtg10/future.news2.html
>
> > Who cares? (Although a certain full of garbage reply in this thread
> > indicates that probably he is)
>
> What is so wrong about that?  Taking the work of others without
> attribution is stealing, like it or not.  And some people, myself
> included, are deeply disturbed by stealing.

While the way I view it is what is stolen? When text is posed and it
is posted inside an algorithm game each letter is like a chess piece
except there are infinite types of chess pieces each with their own
pros and detriments.
From: Tegiri Nenashi on 22 Oct 2009 16:48
On Oct 21, 5:04 pm, cplxphil <cplxp...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure if you're disagreeing.  If you are, my response is that
> you could argue that it preserves the same structure of the decision
> problem, but expressed as a formal language, it's technically
> different.  It has to be proven that languages are basically
> equivalent (in terms of decidability, time complexity, and space
> complexity) and independent of encoding scheme, and this proof only
> applies to encoding schemes that use at least two symbols in the
> alphabet.

I'm not comfortable with this alphabet symbols count. Do word
separators count as alphabet symbols or not? Why is the language is
assumed to be structured into sentences of words? This looks like ad-
hoc assumption from language theory perspective.

> I guess something I should have mentioned earlier is that Cook's
> theorem would not be true if you use a unary alphabet, meaning that
> SAT would not be NP-complete in that case.  If you think you can prove
> Cook's theorem for a unary alphabet, please share this proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cook%E2%80%93Levin_theorem

The only place I noticed depending on the encoding appeared to be the
last sentence. Changing log into polynomial doesn't change anything
there. Is there another dependency I'm missing?
From: Future_News on 22 Oct 2009 19:49
HTTP://FUTRENEWS - REALITY WROTE: On Oct 22, 4:48 am, "H. J. Sander
Bruggink" <brugg...(a)uni-due.de> wrote:
> On 10/22/2009 01:32 AM, Tegiri Nenashi wrote:
>
> > Factorization problem is not hard in unary system. Any other NP-
> > complete problem that doesn't depend on number encoding?
>

DEAR H. J. SANDER BRUGGINK:

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR REPLYING AND TRYING TO TEACH ME.

WHAT IF YOUR COMPUTER COULD NOT TELL WHERE THE INTERNET BEGAN AND
WHERE THE HARD DRIVE ENDED?

I AM YELLING ONLY BECAUSE I HAVE A LEARNING DISABILITY AND I HAVE A
NIECE WHO IS HEARING IMPAIRED
THEY THINK FROM A STRONG ANTI-FUNGAL DRUG THEY GIVE HER WHEN SHE WAS
JUST A DAY
OR TWO OLD. DEAR GOD, I WISH FOR HER AND FOR OTHER CHILDREN ONLY TO
CLAIM THIS PRIZE.

TO BE HONEST I THINK IT IS POSSIBLE TO CAUSE DATA TO BE RENDERED AND
PENETRATED BY MY METHODS. I BELIEVE SEARCHING FOR DATA SOMETIMES
ALTERS OR AUTHORS DATA. MY SEARCH ENGINE 'SEARCHES GOOGLE SEARCHING
GOOGLE' IF YOU CAN IMAGINE AND I AM RUNNING A 'HELLO WORLD' ECHO
ACROSS THE 'HELLO WORLD WIDE WEB'+BANDFLOW /\/\/\/\~~~~~~~~~
HTTP://MEAMI.ORG~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\/\/\/\/\

AS AN ASIDE:

HERE IS NEW color coded ODE demonstration of a Mircosoft database
architecture I am exploring: http://meami.org/2432_appcompat.html

*hint: try the caret browsing F7 control right+left from top to bottom
in IE also try select all and the CV hidden in the blue/black space

MAY I SHOW YOU AN EXAMPLE PLEASE OF A SCHEME OF ENCODING DEFYING
CATEGORIZATION BY
TRADITIONAL MEANS?

(i will try to answer your other questions in time)

BASED ON WORK: http://man.he.net/man1/perlunifaq
FOUND IT HERE:
http://www.meami.org/?cx=000961116824240632825%3A5n3yth9xwbo&cof=FORID%3A9%3B+NB%3A1&ie=UTF-8&q=doesn%27t+depend+on+number+encoding%3F+&sa=Search#1128

'perlunifaq'

Q and A
This is a list of questions and answers about Unicode in Perl,
intended
to be read after perlunitut.

perlunitut isn't really a Unicode tutorial, is it?
No, and this isn't really a Unicode FAQ.

Perl has an abstracted interface for all supported character
encodings,
so they is actually a generic "Encode" tutorial and "Encode"
FAQ. But
many people think that Unicode is special and magical, and I
didn't
want to disappoint them, so I decided to call the document a
Unicode
tutorial.

What character encodings does Perl support?
To find out which character encodings your Perl supports, run:

perl -MEncode -le "print for Encode->encodings(':all')"

Which version of perl should I use?
Well, if you can, upgrade to the most recent, but certainly
5.8.1 or
newer. The tutorial and FAQ are based on the status quo as of
5.8.8.

You should also check your modules, and upgrade them if
necessary. For
example, HTML::Entities requires version >= 1.32 to function
correctly,
even though the changelog is silent about this.

What about binary data, like images?
Well, apart from a bare "binmode $fh", you shouldn't treat
them
specially. (The binmode is needed because otherwise Perl may
convert
line endings on Win32 systems.)

Be careful, though, to never combine text strings with binary
strings.
If you need text in a binary stream, encode your text strings
first
using the appropriate encoding, then join them with binary
strings. See
also: "What if I don't encode?".

When should I decode or encode?
Whenever you're communicating text with anything that is
external to
your perl process, like a database, a text file, a socket, or
another
program. Even if the thing you're communicating with is also
written in
Perl.

What if I don't decode?
Whenever your encoded, binary string is used together with a
text
string, Perl will assume that your binary string was encoded
with
ISO-8859-1, also known as latin-1. If it wasn't latin-1, then
your data
is unpleasantly converted. For example, if it was UTF-8, the
individual
bytes of multibyte characters are seen as separate characters,
and then
again converted to UTF-8. Such double encoding can be compared
to
double HTML encoding ("&amp;gt;"), or double URI encoding
(%253E).

This silent implicit decoding is known as "upgrading". That
may sound
positive, but it's best to avoid it.
maintenance programmers that you thought this through.

Is there a way to automatically decode or encode?
If all data that comes from a certain handle is encoded in
exactly the
same way, you can tell the PerlIO system to automatically
decode
everything, with the "encoding" layer. If you do this, you
can't
accidentally forget to decode or encode anymore, on things
that use the
layered handle.

You can provide this layer when "open"ing the file:

open my $fh, '>:encoding(UTF-8)', $filename; # auto
encoding on write
open my $fh, '<:encoding(UTF-8)', $filename; # auto
decoding on read

Or if you already have an open filehandle:

binmode $fh, ':encoding(UTF-8)';

Some database drivers for DBI can also automatically encode
and decode,
but that is sometimes limited to the UTF-8 encoding.

What if I don't know which encoding was used?
Do whatever you can to find out, and if you have to: guess.
(Don't
forget to document your guess with a comment.)

You could open the document in a web browser, and change the
character
set or character encoding until you can visually confirm that
all
characters look the way they should.

There is no way to reliably detect the encoding automatically,
so if
people keep sending you data without charset indication, you
may have
to educate them.

Can I use Unicode in my Perl sources?
Yes, you can! If your sources are UTF-8 encoded, you can
indicate that
with the "use utf8" pragma.

use utf8;

This doesn't do anything to your input, or to your output. It
only
influences the way your sources are read. You can use Unicode
in string
literals, in identifiers (but they still have to be "word
characters"
according to "\w"), and even in custom delimiters.

Data::Dumper doesn't restore the UTF8 flag; is it broken?
No, Data::Dumper's Unicode abilities are as they should be.
There have
been some complaints that it should restore the UTF8 flag when
the data
is read again with "eval". However, you should really not look
at the
flag, and nothing indicates that Data::Dumper should break
this rule.

Here's what happens: when Perl reads in a string literal, it
sticks to
8 bit encoding as long as it can. (But perhaps originally it
was
internally encoded as UTF-8, when you dumped it.) When it has
to give
that up because other characters are added to the text string,
it
Affected are "uc", "lc", "ucfirst", "lcfirst", "\U", "\L",
"\u", "\l",
"\d", "\s", "\w", "\D", "\S", "\W", "/.../i", "(?i:...)",
"/[[:posix:]]/".

To force Unicode semantics, you can upgrade the internal
representation
to by doing "utf8::upgrade($string)". This does not change
strings that
were already upgraded.

For a more detailed discussion, see Unicode::Semantics on
CPAN.

How can I determine if a string is a text string or a binary
string?
You can't. Some use the UTF8 flag for this, but that's misuse,
and
makes well behaved modules like Data::Dumper look bad. The
flag is
useless for this purpose, because it's off when an 8 bit
encoding (by
default ISO-8859-1) is used to store the string.

This is something you, the programmer, has to keep track of;
sorry. You
could consider adopting a kind of "Hungarian notation" to help
with
this.

How do I convert from encoding FOO to encoding BAR?
By first converting the FOO-encoded byte string to a text
string, and
then the text string to a BAR-encoded byte string:

my $text_string = decode('FOO', $foo_string);
my $bar_string = encode('BAR', $text_string);

or by skipping the text string part, and going directly from
one binary
encoding to the other:

use Encode qw(from_to);
from_to($string, 'FOO', 'BAR'); # changes contents of
$string

or by letting automatic decoding and encoding do all the work:

open my $foofh, '<:encoding(FOO)', 'example.foo.txt';
open my $barfh, '>:encoding(BAR)', 'example.bar.txt';
print { $barfh } $_ while <$foofh>;

What are "decode_utf8" and "encode_utf8"?
These are alternate syntaxes for "decode('utf8', ...)" and
"encode('utf8', ...)".

What is a "wide character"?
This is a term used both for characters with an ordinal value
greater
than 127, characters with an ordinal value greater than 255,
or any
character occupying than one byte, depending on the context.

The Perl warning "Wide character in ..." is caused by a
character with
an ordinal value greater than 255. With no specified encoding
layer,
Perl tries to fit things in ISO-8859-1 for backward
compatibility
reasons. When it can't, it emits this warning (if warnings are
enabled), and outputs UTF-8 encoded data instead.

The UTF8 flag, also called SvUTF8, is an internal flag that
indicates
that the current internal representation is UTF-8. Without the
flag, it
is assumed to be ISO-8859-1. Perl converts between these
automatically.

One of Perl's internal formats happens to be UTF-8.
Unfortunately, Perl
can't keep a secret, so everyone knows about this. That is the
source
of much confusion. It's better to pretend that the internal
format is
some unknown encoding, and that you always have to encode and
decode
explicitly.

What about the "use bytes" pragma?
Don't use it. It makes no sense to deal with bytes in a text
string,
and it makes no sense to deal with characters in a byte
string. Do the
proper conversions (by decoding/encoding), and things will
work out
well: you get character counts for decoded data, and byte
counts for
encoded data.

"use bytes" is usually a failed attempt to do something
useful. Just
forget about it.

What about 'D' the "use encoding" pragma?
Don't use it. Unfortunately, it assumes that the programmer's
environment and that of the user will use the same encoding.
It will
use the same encoding for the source code and for STDIN and
STDOUT.
When a program is copied to another machine, the source code
does not
change, but the STDIO environment might.

If you need non-ASCII characters in your source code, make it
a UTF-8
encoded file and "use utf8".

If you need to set the encoding for STDIN, STDOUT, and STDERR,
for
example based on the user's locale, "use open".

What is the difference between ":encoding" and ":utf8"?
Because UTF-8 is one of Perl's internal formats, you can often
just
skip the encoding or decoding step, and manipulate the UTF8
flag
directly.

Instead of ":encoding(UTF-8)", you can simply use ":utf8",
which skips
the encoding step if the data was already represented as UTF8
internally. This is widely accepted as good behavior when
you're
writing, but it can be dangerous when reading, because it
causes
internal inconsistency when you have invalid byte sequences.
Using
":utf8" for input can sometimes result in security breaches,
so please
use ":encoding(UTF-8)" instead.

Instead of "decode" and "encode", you could use "_utf8_on" and
"_utf8_off", but this is considered bad style. Especially
"_utf8_on"
can be dangerous, for the same reason that ":utf8" can.

There are some shortcuts for oneliners; see "-C" in perlrun.

What's the difference between "UTF-8" and "utf8"?
"UTF-8" is the official standard. "utf8" is Perl's way of
being liberal
Encode for more ways of dealing with this.)

Okay, if you insist: the "internal format" is utf8, not UTF-8.
(When
it's not some other encoding.)

I lost track; what encoding is the internal format really?
It's good that you lost track, because you shouldn't depend on
the
internal format being any specific encoding. But since you
asked: by
default, the internal format is either ISO-8859-1 (latin-1),
or utf8,
depending on the history of the string. On EBCDIC platforms,
this may
be different even.

Perl knows how it stored the string internally, and will use
that
knowledge when you "encode". In other words: don't try to find
out what
the internal encoding for a certain string is, but instead
just encode
it into the encoding that you want.

AUTHOR
Juerd Waalboer <#####@juerd.nl>

SEE ALSO
perlunicode, perluniintro, Encode



perl v5.10.0 2007-12-18
PERLUNIFAQ(1)

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> First, it is not known if factorization is an NP-complete problem.
> Second, there are a great number of NP-complete problems in which
> numbers are not even mentioned. SAT for example. Or various
> graph-theoretic problems.
>
> But yes, if your encoding scheme is stupid enough, every problem can be
> solved in polynomial time. Why is that even remotely interesting?
>
> > So my question is: are there any genuinely "hard" problems that don't
> > depend on (rather arbitrary) choice of number system?
>
> SAT, Hamilton Path, Clique, ...
>
> groente
> -- Sander

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</DATABASE>


x
AS AN ASIDE I FOUND A NEAT PROGRAM THAT DOES .LHZ ZIPPING AND
EXTRACTION AND IT ALMOST DOES NOT SEEM REAL: IT IS THE FASTEST ZIP/
EXTRACTION TOOL I HAVE EVER USED == IT'S LIKE A ROCKET -- IT LOOKS AS
THOUGH AS IT WAS AUTHORED AS A CONGLOMERATE OF MY SHELL CODE AND SOME
OTHER PROGRAM

From: Tegiri Nenashi on 23 Oct 2009 16:06
On Oct 21, 6:58 pm, Gordon Stangler <gordon.stang...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> What is so wrong about that?  Taking the work of others without
> attribution is stealing, like it or not.  And some people, myself
> included, are deeply disturbed by stealing.

I disagree. Shoplifters are less disgusting than people defecating in
public places.

From: http://alexslemonade.org on 23 Oct 2009 18:11


Tegiri Nenashi wrote:
> On Oct 21, 6:58 pm, Gordon Stangler <gordon.stang...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > What is so wrong about that?  Taking the work of others without
> > attribution is stealing, like it or not.  And some people, myself
> > included, are deeply disturbed by stealing.
>
> I disagree. Shoplifters are less disgusting than people defecating in
> public places.

Both of you are gross for distracting from my genius execution of the
P VERSUS NP problem above.
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