Seeking a correct explanation for Stellar Abberation
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From: Henry Wilson DSc on 22 Apr 2010 23:38 On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:50:51 -0700, eric gisse <jowr.pi.nospam(a)gmail.com> wrote: >..@..(Henry Wilson DSc) wrote: > >> On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 00:29:45 -0700, eric gisse <jowr.pi.nospam(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> when are you going to say something intelligent? > >See? Henrie can feel embarrassment. When are you goig to say something inteeligent? Henry Wilson... ........A person's IQ = his snipping ability.
From: Androcles on 22 Apr 2010 23:41 "Henry Wilson DSc" <..@..> wrote in message news:1g52t5t113p1dhu3caqpjroc8qb96e6f1u(a)4ax.com... > On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:50:51 -0700, eric gisse <jowr.pi.nospam(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >>..@..(Henry Wilson DSc) wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 00:29:45 -0700, eric gisse >>> <jowr.pi.nospam(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> when are you going to say something intelligent? >> >>See? Henrie can feel embarrassment. > > When are you goig to say something inteeligent? > > Henry Wilson... > > .......A person's IQ = his snipping ability. Awilson's IQ = his spelling ability.
From: Henry Wilson DSc on 22 Apr 2010 23:39 On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 02:30:59 +0100, "Androcles" <Headmaster(a)Hogwarts.physics_y> wrote: > >"Henry Wilson DSc" <..@..> wrote in message >news:5lh1t51k2qq312ptoqkpd9joebg5rhp2a9(a)4ax.com... >> On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:38:31 +0100, "Androcles" <Headbullshitter wrote: >> >> Henry Wilson... >> >> .......A person's IQ = his snipping ability. > >Awilson's IQ = his attribution ability = zero. >Why would Goose ask "when are you going to say something intelligent?" >and then call himself "Henry Wilson"? Androcles IQ = zero = his contribution ability Henry Wilson... ........A person's IQ = his snipping ability.
From: Androcles on 22 Apr 2010 23:48 "Henry Wilson DSc" <..@..> wrote in message news:dh52t5pubeakjduv2lv4cklp3sgvq2hoqh(a)4ax.com... > On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 02:30:59 +0100, "Androcles" > <Headmaster(a)Hogwarts.physics_y> > wrote: > >> >>"Henry Wilson DSc" <..@..> wrote in message >>news:5lh1t51k2qq312ptoqkpd9joebg5rhp2a9(a)4ax.com... >>> On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:38:31 +0100, "Androcles" <Headbullshitter wrote: >>> >>> Henry Wilson... >>> >>> .......A person's IQ = his snipping ability. >> >>Awilson's IQ = his attribution ability = zero. >>Why would Goose ask "when are you going to say something intelligent?" >>and then call himself "Henry Wilson"? > > Androcles IQ = zero = his contribution ability > Is that what you think you are doing, "contributing"? You are currently generating all noise and no signal, you're as fuckin' stupid as a shitheaded relativist.
From: Paul B. Andersen on 21 Apr 2010 10:26
On 20.04.2010 23:47, Henry Wilson DSc wrote: > On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 13:33:17 +0200, "Paul B. Andersen" > <paul.b.andersen(a)somewhere.no> wrote: > >> On 19.04.2010 23:07, Henry Wilson DSc wrote: >>> Why did you claim that the emission angle wrt the star changes >>> with distance, Paul? >> >> Because it does, of course. >> >> When YOUR imaginary star IN YOUR SCENARIO is 1 light minute >> vertically above the Earth, the angle of the light that hits >> the Earth is emitted vertically down _relative to the star_. >> >> When YOUR imaginary star IN YOUR SCENARIO is 1 LY vertically >> above the Earth, the angle of the light that hits the Earth >> is emittet at an angle v/c from vertically down _relative to the star_. > > So what is the angle when the distance is TWO LYs? > Is it 2v/c as you claim? ...by saying it is 'distance dependent' Redefining words again, Ralph? In the Rabbidgian vocabulary 'distant dependent' = 'proportional with distance' Right? How stupid! > >>> You have since affirmed that it does not. >> >> No, I haven't. >> >> YOU have all the time affirmed that it does not, >> but that the angle of the light that hits the Earth >> _always_ is emitted vertically down _relative to the star_. >> >> You didn't even understand that 1 light minute and 1 LY >> were two entirely different situations! >> You thought the emission angle relative to the star >> were the same in both cases! How stupid. :-) > > Sorry, It was I who pointed out that they not the same. Quite. You have pointed out that as well as the exact opposite. The point you don't seem to have realized is that, since your star and the Earth are moving in equivalent orbits, it is a symmetry between the angle the telescope has to point relative to the Earth, and the the angle the hypothetical laser has to point relative to the star. They both have to point in the same direction relative to their orbital velocity. (But because the light is going in the opposite direction in the laser and the telescope, the angles are reversed - forward of vertical for the telescope, backwards from vertical for the laser.) Since you asserted that there was no aberration in your scenario, you implied that both the telescope and the laser always should point vertically relative to their respective rest frames. That is true only for distances << 1LY, when the curvature of the orbit can be ignore. It is horribly wrong for all other distances. > > ..and you are still wrong, anyway. > > If the laser is pointed exactly vertically downwards at the telescope, the > lateral velocity of the 'photons' will be tangential. A narrow beam will not > hit the telescope at all because of its centripetal acceleration. Right. So you are contradicting your initial claim. > The laser must be pointed slightly INWARD. The 'inward angle' varies with > distance. It returns to zero at exact multiples of the period. > > Am I right? No. You are wrong. If the distance is exactly 1LY and you point the laser 'inwards', you may make the beam hit the Earth's orbit, BUT IT WILL NOT HIT THE EARTH. Why is it that you can be explained the same over and over and still not understand? You must have a serious reading comprehension problem. When the distance is exactly 1 LY, the path of the light (every single photon) must be vertical in the solar frame if it shall hit the Earth. This figure has been shown umpteen times now, and it is still correct. Drawn in the Sun-frame: ----------------------- * -> v (star is now back after having made a full orbit) *' -> v (star where it was a year ago when light was emitted) | | | | O -> v (Earth now) The light is entering the telescope 'vertically', but since the telescope is moving to the right, aberration will be v/c towards the right. The net effect is that the telescope must be tilted v/c to the right. AND THIS IS THE WHAT IS RELEVANT TO STELLAR ABERRATION. It is of course irreleant in what direction you have to point your laser relative to the star, but IF you ask that rather meaningless question, the answer is that it has to be pointed v/c bakcwards from vertical, NOT inwards. THAT will make the path of each photon vertical in the Solar frame, and there is no tangential velocity component. To sum it up: For all whole numbers of LY, including exactly 100LY: ----------------------------------------------------- Relevant: The telescope has to point an angle v/c forward of vertical. Irrelevant: The laser has to point an angle v/c backwards of vertical. ('forward' means in the direction of the orbital velocity) If the distance is 1.5 LY: -------------------------- (I have explained this before, read it again if you don't get it) Relevant: The telescope has to point an angle v/c forward of vertical AND an angle 2AU/1.5LY 'inwards from vertical'. Irrelevant: The laser has to point an angle v/c backwards of vertical AND an angle 2AU/1.5LY 'inwards from vertical'. If the distance is 100.5 LY: Relevant: The telescope has to be pointed an angle v/c forward of vertical AND an angle 2AU/100.5LY = 0.062" 'inwards from vertical'. Ireleavant: The laser has to be pointed an angle v/c backwards of vertical AND an angle 2AU/100.5LY = 0.062" 'inwards from vertical'. The 'inwards angle', the telescope (and the non existing laser) has to point whenever the distance isn't a whole number of LY's will be smaller and smaller with distance, and at 100+ LY it will be less than 0.062" which is negligible. [..] >> So can we now agree that the aberration of your imaginary >> star, when it is at its original 100LY distance, will be 41" >> just like any other star? >> >> Can we now agree that the velocity of the star is irrelevant, >> and that you can't cancel the aberration by putting the star >> in a particular orbit? > > What about the 'inward angle' I just talked about. The 'inward angle' you just talked about was the angle of a non existing laser which is utterly irrelevant to stellar aberration. However, the 'inward angle' the telescope has to point is the same as the 'inward angle' the non existing laser has to point, and for 100+LY it is negligible compared to the 41" aberration. Besides. This 'inward angle' isn't stellar aberration at all, it is proper motion. As viewed from the Sun, the 100LY distant star which annually is orbiting with a radious 1AU, would seem to move in a circle with 2AU/100LY = 0.062" diameter. This motion is called "proper motion", even when it is circular. Proper motion is per definition the motion caused by the star's motion relative to the Sun. > > For the laser beam to hit the telescope in six months time, it must be pointed > so its light will hit that spot....ie., INWARD AND BACKWARD. Its lateral speed > will be opposite to that of the telescope. > > So, in six months, the beam will not be traveling perpendicularly to the orbit > plane and the aberration angle will be exaggerated. > > Am I wrong Paul? Addressed above. >> But of course you will never admit that you were wrong, >> even when you realize that you are. >> >> So you will have to find a word to redefine - >> or what will it be? > > You are correct that a star's linear motion does not affect aberration angle. > However, any curvature in its path could introduce an error. In the case of an > orbiting star, that error could be significant and should be periodic. No, no, no. The velocity of the star - straight or curved - doesn't affect the direction in which we see the star. But of course will we see the star's position change with time if the star is moving! It doesn't matter if it is moving along a straight line or a curved one, as seen from the Sun, we would see the star where it was in the solar frame when the light was emitted. This is the position which is charted in the star catalogues. This motion is proper motion, it is _not_ stellar aberration. From the Earth, we will see the star moving around that position in an annual ellipse with major axis 41". The centre of that ellipse is the position as it would be seen from the Sun - the position you find in the stellar catalogues. If the star is moving - (proper motion) - then the ellipse would move along. The resulting curve isn't an ellipse, it is a sum of the proper motion and stellar aberration (and parallax). Do you still not understand that the _fact_ that spectroscopic binaries always appear as one single star, despite the fact that the stars in the binaries are moving along curved paths, and with opposite velocities prove that "In the case of an orbiting star" no periodic error is introduced. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOUR IMAGINARY LASERS WOULD HAVE TO BE SWUNG AROUND ALL THE TIME: So can we now agree that the aberration of your imaginary star, when it is at its original 100LY distance, will be 41" just like any other star, and that the annual 0.062" circular proper motion of your star is negligible? Or do you still claim that there would be no stellar aberration of your imaginary star, and that is thus will appear to move 20.5" back and forth relative to other stars? -- Paul http://home.c2i.net/pb_andersen/ |