Some Contradictory Claims of SR.
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From: kenseto on 27 Jun 2010 10:28 On Jun 26, 10:57 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jun 26, 9:43 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 25, 5:01 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 25, 8:38 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 23, 12:32 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 23, 9:32 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 12, 1:21 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Jun 12, 9:07 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Jun 11, 4:52 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 11, 1:00 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 11, 9:07 am, Sam Wormley <sworml...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/11/10 7:36 AM, kenseto wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > No from the hole point of view the bug is still alive just before the > > > > > > > > > > > > head of the rivet hits the wall of the hole. However from the rivet > > > > > > > > > > > > point of view the bug is already deadat the just before the head of > > > > > > > > > > > > the rivet hit the wall of the hole. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick on perspective or the other, Seto. You can't have both! > > > > > > > > > > > Wormy the bug cannot be both alive and dead at the moment when the > > > > > > > > > > head of the rivet hits the wall of the hole....both observers must > > > > > > > > > > agree on whether the bug is alive or dead but not both. > > > > > > > > > > No, Ken. > > > > > > > > > The order of events is frame dependent. > > > > > > > > > It is not true that both observers must agree on the state of the bug > > > > > > > > > *when* the rivet head hits. > > > > > > > > > The "when" is the part that trips you up. > > > > > > > > > Hey idiot... the bug is dead or alive is an absolute event > > > > > > > > "Absolute event" is a term you made up, and has no meaning in physics. > > > > > > > The word "event" has a specific meaning in physics, even if you're > > > > > > > unaware of it. > > > > > > > The order of spacelike-separated events depends on the frame. > > > > > > > > > The hole > > > > > > > > clock and the rivet clock are running at different rates give you the > > > > > > > > two perspective. When you corrected for the rate difference you will > > > > > > > > see that the rivet's perspective is the correct perspective.. > > > > > > > > In physics, Ken, it is important that one not favor one reference > > > > > > > frame over another as being "the correct one". Physical laws are the > > > > > > > same in all reference frames, though the quantities in the laws will > > > > > > > vary frame to frame and the description of events will be different in > > > > > > > two different frames. > > > > > > > I am not favoring one perspective over the other. Both the hole > > > > > > observer and the rivet observer agree that the bug dies at the same > > > > > > instant of time. > > > > > > No, they do not. This is an error on your part. > > > > > Your crappy attempt to save face is an embarrassment. > > > > > Assertion is not a valid arguement. > > > > I'm not MAKING an argument. Your assertion that the two observers must > > > agree whether the bug dies before or after the rivet head strikes the > > > wall is just that -- an assertion. An incorrect assertion. > > > > No amount of ARGUMENT will convince you that your assertion is > > > incorrect. No amount of ARGUMENT will convince you that the assertions > > > of relativity are the ones that are correct. The correctness of a > > > theory does not arise from any ARGUMENT. What determines the > > > correctness of relativity is its agreement with experiment. If you do > > > not know about the experiments, or you are not convinced of the > > > results, then you will never believe that relativity is correct. > > > There is no experiment confirming that length contraction is > > physically or materially real. So your assertion is without merit. > > That is a lie, Ken. I've given you several examples of experiments > that have provided sufficient confirmation of length contraction as a > PHYSICAL effect. No such experiment ever been done. In fact there is no physical or material length contraction. Why Because it gives rise to paradoxes such as the bug and the rivet paradox and the barn and the pole paradox. Ken Seto > Whether it is a material effect is a different question, because > "physical" means "material" in YOUR head only, not in the minds of > physicists. If you want to know what "physical" means, you ask a > physicist. > You've asked for those experimental results to be spoonfed to you > here, and I've told you to go do your own stinking homework. That > still stands. > > PD- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: kenseto on 27 Jun 2010 10:38 On Jun 26, 11:03 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jun 26, 9:54 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 25, 5:04 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 25, 8:33 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 23, 2:03 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 23, 9:22 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 22, 11:34 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Jun 22, 10:28 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > The normal usage of the word physical is material related. > > > > > > > > No, it is not, Ken. That is YOUR usage. It is not the usage that > > > > > > > physicists use. > > > > > > > Yes it is....it is in the dictionary. You boneheaded physicists need > > > > > > to change. > > > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > > > No, Ken. Physicists are the ones who *rightfully* own what "physical" > > > > > means. Not ordinary folks, not a dictionary of common usage. If you as > > > > > an ordinary folk think "physical" means "material", then physicists do > > > > > NOT need to conform to your meaning of the word. This is not a battle > > > > > of wills. > > > > > The whole point of this discussion is: Is length contraction in SR a > > > > real shortening of a physical or material meter stick > > > > You keep using "physical" and "material" as though they were synonyms.. > > > They are NOT. > > > Yes they are. > > > > If you want to know what "physical" means, you ask a physicist. You do > > > NOT hang on to what "the public" thinks. You let go of what "the > > > public" thinks and you LEARN something from the physicist. > > > Length contraction in SR is either apparent or physical/material but > > not both. > > You do NOT get to dictate what "physical" means. Sure...if you want to use physical as not material then you need to define what that meaning means....but you refuse to do so. > You do NOT get to say "physical" does not mean "geometric". If physical means geometrical then why do you need the term physical to explain length contraction???....is it design to fool the public? One question: if length contraction is only geometrical then how come a ball will flatten to a pancake materially in the direction of motion. Also what is that motion that causes the flattening? Ken Seto > You do NOT get to say "physical" means "material" and everything else > is just "apparent". > You do NOT get to say "apparent" means anything that is not > "material". > You do NOT get to say "frame-dependent" means "apparent" and not > "physical". > > > You try to use the word physical to mean both....apparently > > it is an attempt to fool the public > > No, it is NOT an attempt to fool the public. Physicists have ALWAYS > made it clear that if you want to do physics, then you MUST learn the > meaning of the words *as they are used in physics*, NOT as they are > used in common everyday language. This is what is taught from day one > in any physics class. > > You may say, "But I don't LIKE that. I want to be able to stick with > everyday language and still do physics, and if I can't then you're > trying to pull the wool over the public's eyes." That is just laziness > and whining. Stop it. It's childish behavior. > > There are no shortcuts. There is homework to be done if you want to do > physics. Part of that homework is learning the terminology. Asking you > to do homework is not an attempt to fool the public. It is telling you > to stop being so lazy. > > > > > and yourself that physcial > > contraction can mean both apparent and material. > > > Ken Seto > > > > If you do not want to learn anything from a physicist, including the > > > meaning of the word "physical", then you're never going to get anyone > > > to treat your ideas seriously. Ever. > > > > > or it is just a > > > > gemetric projection effect (a rotational effect). You want to retain > > > > the word physical to give the impression to the public that length > > > > contraction in SR is physically or materially real and then you want > > > > to use the term geometric projection when real physical or material > > > > length contraction gives rise to paradoxes. You phyicists are a bunch > > > > of crowns. > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > > >It is just an act of stupidity if you do not let doctors > > > > > determine what "medicine" means, architects determine what > > > > > "architecture" means, biologists determine what "biological life" > > > > > means, and physicists determine what "physical" means. > > > > > > This is not unfair. It is a fact of life. Suck it up. > > > > > > No physicist would ever agree that "physical" means material and frame- > > > > > dependent. This is YOUR meaning, and only yours. Stick to it, and you > > > > > will NEVER get off square one with your ideas. > > > > > > PD- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: Sam Wormley on 27 Jun 2010 10:45 On 6/27/10 9:13 AM, kenseto wrote: > On Jun 26, 5:39 pm, Sam Wormley<sworml...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Assuming that both stars stars go nova simultaneously is MEANINGLESS. > > > Hey idot without this stipulation then the gedanken is meaningless. > > Ken Seto Ken, this is your chance to learn something in on USENET! Relativity of simultaneity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity "In physics, the relativity of simultaneity is the concept that simultaneity�whether two events occur at the same time�is not absolute, but depends on the observer's reference frame. According to the special theory of relativity, it is impossible to say in an absolute sense whether two events occur at the same time if those events are separated in space". Two points Ken: o whether two events occur at the same time�is not absolute, but depends on the observer's reference frame o it is impossible to say in an absolute sense whether two events occur at the same time if those events are separated in space Die gedanken, to be useful, must take into account the relativistic physics, not the old Newtonian concepts. You cannot butcher the gedanken with Newtonian absolutes!
From: Sam Wormley on 27 Jun 2010 10:54 On 6/27/10 9:24 AM, kenseto wrote: > > Sigh... no experiment supports physical or material length > contraction. > > Ken Seto From the cosmic muon's perspective, the distance traveled to the earth's surface is foreshortened as predicted by relativity theory.
From: Sam Wormley on 27 Jun 2010 10:56
On 6/27/10 9:28 AM, kenseto wrote: > In fact there is no physical or > material length contraction. Why Because it gives rise to paradoxes > such as the bug and the rivet paradox and the barn and the pole > paradox. > > Ken Seto Remember, Ken, you only get one perspective. Relativity theory correctly predicts the outcome of a measurement or observation. One perspective Ken--No paradox. |