Some Contradictory Claims of SR.
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From: kenseto on 11 Jul 2010 09:27 On Jul 10, 10:47 am, Sam Wormley <sworml...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 7/10/10 9:09 AM, kenseto wrote: > > > On Jul 9, 10:11 pm, "Inertial"<relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: > > >> There is no frame where in which the bug dies both before and after the > >> rivet hits the wall. Either it dies before, or it dies after. The measured > >> order depends on the frame or reference. It never dies at two different > >> times. > > > Hey idiot...if length contraction in SR is physical or material then > > the bug dies at two different times. If length contraction is only a > > geometric projection effect then both observer agree that the bug dies > > at one time....when the tip of the rivet hits the bug. > > > Ken Seto > > Seto, You are out of control. One reference frame--the bug dies once. > You can't have more than one reference frame. > > > > > Relativity of simultaneity > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity > > > "In physics, the relativity of simultaneity is the concept that > > simultaneity?whether two events occur at the same time?is not absolute, > > but depends on the observer's reference frame. According to the special > > theory of relativity, it is impossible to say in an absolute sense > > whether two events occur at the same time if those events are separated > > in space. Where an event occurs in a single place?for example, a car > > crash?all observers will agree that both cars arrived at the point of > > impact at the same time. But where the events are separated in space, > > such as one car crash in London and another in New Delhi, the question > > of whether the events are simultaneous is relative: in some reference > > frames the two accidents may happen at the same time, in others (in a > > different state of motion relative to the events) the crash in London > > may occur first, and in still others the New Delhi crash may occur first. > > > "If we imagine one reference frame assigns precisely the same time to > > two events that are at different points in space, a reference frame that > > is moving relative to the first will generally assign different times to > > the two events. This is illustrated in the ladder paradox, a thought > > experiment which uses the example of a ladder moving at high speed > > through a garage. > > > "A mathematical form of the relativity of simultaneity ("local time") > > was introduced by Hendrik Lorentz in 1892, and physically interpreted > > (to first order in v/c) as the result of a synchronization using light > > signals by Henri Poincar? in 1900. However, both Lorentz and Poincar? > > based their conceptions on the aether as a preferred but undetectable > > frame of reference, and continued to distinguish between "true time" (in > > the aether) and "apparent" times for moving observers. It was Albert > > Einstein in 1905 who abandoned the (classical) aether and emphasized the > > significance of relativity of simultaneity to our understanding of space > > and time. He deduced the failure of absolute simultaneity from two > > stated assumptions: > > > 1. the principle of relativity?the equivalence of inertial frames, such > > that the laws of physics apply equally in all inertial coordinate systems; > > > 2. the constancy of the speed of light detected in empty space, > > independent of the relative motion of its source. You are the one who is out of control....accoridng to SR the bug dies twice....before and after the head of the rivet hits the wall of the hole. > > > __________________ > > > Student understanding of time in special relativity: simultaneity and > > reference frames > > http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0207109- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: Michael Moroney on 13 Jul 2010 12:34 kenseto <kenseto(a)erinet.com> writes: >On Jul 12, 2:58 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) >wrote: >> kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> writes: >> >On Jul 10, 10:11 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) >> >wrote: >> >> >> There is no inertial frame where the bug dies more than once, or fewer >> >> than once. Every observer no matter what their frame is agrees the bug >> >> dies exactly once. Your claim that SR claims the bug dies at two different >> >> times is absurdity. >> >Hey idiot SR predicts that the bug dies before and after the head of >> >the rivet hits the wall of the hole....that's two instant of time. >> >> No it doesn't. It predicts the bug dies before OR after the rivet head >> hits the wall, depending on the frame of the observer. >Hey idiotthe rivet observer says that the bug dies before the head of >the rivet hits the wall and the hole observer says that the bug dies >after the head of the rivet hits the wall..... (ignoring insult) Very Good. Maybe you're beginning to understand the problem and how the two observers observe different sequences of events. >that means that the bug >dies at two instants of time. Nope. The rivet observer sees the bug die exactly ONCE, not twice. The hole observer sees the bug die exactly ONCE, not twice. So do all other observers. No observer sees the bug die twice, like you claim. Until you understand this, you'll continue to wallow in your ignorance (actually, stupidity). How are you coming along with the two stars going nova problem and the red/blue box problem? Figure either one of them out yet?
From: kenseto on 14 Jul 2010 08:39 On Jul 13, 12:34 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> writes: > >On Jul 12, 2:58 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > >wrote: > >> kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> writes: > >> >On Jul 10, 10:11 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > >> >wrote: > > >> >> There is no inertial frame where the bug dies more than once, or fewer > >> >> than once. Every observer no matter what their frame is agrees the bug > >> >> dies exactly once. Your claim that SR claims the bug dies at two different > >> >> times is absurdity. > >> >Hey idiot SR predicts that the bug dies before and after the head of > >> >the rivet hits the wall of the hole....that's two instant of time. > > >> No it doesn't. It predicts the bug dies before OR after the rivet head > >> hits the wall, depending on the frame of the observer. > >Hey idiotthe rivet observer says that the bug dies before the head of > >the rivet hits the wall and the hole observer says that the bug dies > >after the head of the rivet hits the wall..... > > (ignoring insult) Very Good. Maybe you're beginning to understand the > problem and how the two observers observe different sequences of events. > > >that means that the bug > >dies at two instants of time. > > Nope. The rivet observer sees the bug die exactly ONCE, not twice. > The hole observer sees the bug die exactly ONCE, not twice. > So do all other observers. No observer sees the bug die twice, like > you claim. Hey idiot....before and after are two different instants of time and this fact is not observer depedent. That means that SR predicts that the bug dies at two different instants of time. If you get rid of the bogus idea of physical/material length contraction in SR then the bug dies only one time ....when the tip of the rivet hits the bug. You runts of the SRians are truly a bunch of stupid idiots. Ken Seto > > Until you understand this, you'll continue to wallow in your ignorance > (actually, stupidity). > > How are you coming along with the two stars going nova problem and the > red/blue box problem? Figure either one of them out yet?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: PD on 14 Jul 2010 10:48 On Jul 14, 7:39 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > On Jul 13, 12:34 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > wrote: > > > > > > > kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> writes: > > >On Jul 12, 2:58 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > >wrote: > > >> kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> writes: > > >> >On Jul 10, 10:11 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > >> >wrote: > > > >> >> There is no inertial frame where the bug dies more than once, or fewer > > >> >> than once. Every observer no matter what their frame is agrees the bug > > >> >> dies exactly once. Your claim that SR claims the bug dies at two different > > >> >> times is absurdity. > > >> >Hey idiot SR predicts that the bug dies before and after the head of > > >> >the rivet hits the wall of the hole....that's two instant of time. > > > >> No it doesn't. It predicts the bug dies before OR after the rivet head > > >> hits the wall, depending on the frame of the observer. > > >Hey idiotthe rivet observer says that the bug dies before the head of > > >the rivet hits the wall and the hole observer says that the bug dies > > >after the head of the rivet hits the wall..... > > > (ignoring insult) Very Good. Maybe you're beginning to understand the > > problem and how the two observers observe different sequences of events.. > > > >that means that the bug > > >dies at two instants of time. > > > Nope. The rivet observer sees the bug die exactly ONCE, not twice. > > The hole observer sees the bug die exactly ONCE, not twice. > > So do all other observers. No observer sees the bug die twice, like > > you claim. > > Hey idiot....before and after are two different instants of time and > this fact is not observer depedent. Assertion is not an argument. What you just said is counter to experimental observation. > That means that SR predicts that > the bug dies at two different instants of time. If you get rid of the > bogus idea of physical/material length contraction in SR then the bug > dies only one time ....when the tip of the rivet hits the bug. You > runts of the SRians are truly a bunch of stupid idiots. > > Ken Seto > > > > > > > Until you understand this, you'll continue to wallow in your ignorance > > (actually, stupidity). > > > How are you coming along with the two stars going nova problem and the > > red/blue box problem? Figure either one of them out yet?- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: kenseto on 14 Jul 2010 13:58
On Jul 14, 10:46 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 14, 7:48 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 13, 1:24 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Jul 13, 7:58 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 12, 10:10 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Jul 12, 8:52 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 11, 3:37 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Jul 11, 8:32 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Jul 10, 11:59 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 10, 8:44 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 9, 3:52 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 9, 1:44 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 8, 11:07 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 8, 8:00 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 7, 11:01 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail..com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 7, 9:23 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 6, 3:52 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Jul 1, 10:29 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >but SR predicts that that the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >bug dies at two different instants of time due to length contraction > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >and that is the source of contradiction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> No it doesn't. Both observers agree that the bug dies, just once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Hey idiot.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since it is you who is having such a tough time understanding this problem > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yet you continue to refuse to learn SR, I'd say that you're the idiot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > around here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey idiot I am not trying to learn SR. I am pointing out that SR makes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > contradictory claims. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. YOUR superficial and comic-book ideas about SR are contradictory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But SR is not contradictory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >YOUR superficial and comic book ideas about SR are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > contradictory. But SR is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you understood what SR *really says*, then you would easily see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there are no contradictions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The comic book claims are on your part. For example: the bug dies at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > two different times, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't. This is what YOU say, not what SR says. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mutual time dilation, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not a contradiction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > physcial contraction is not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > material or geometric > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not a contradiction. It is YOUR assertion that "physical" > > > > > > > > > > > > > means "material". Physicists disagree with you, and they own the > > > > > > > > > > > > > definition of 'physical". That is not a contradiction, it is a > > > > > > > > > > > > > correction of a mistake. You don't like it, but that doesn't make it a > > > > > > > > > > > > > contradiction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure it is a contradiction....you tried to have two meanings for the > > > > > > > > > > > > word physical. > > > > > > > > > > > >...one means apparent contraction (geometric projection) > > > > > > > > > > > > and the other implies material contraction. You can have one or the > > > > > > > > > > > > other but not both simultaneously. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken, you're an idiot. > > > > > > > > > > > No you are the idiot. You want to clint on to the bogus idea that > > > > > > > > > > length contraction in SR is both geometrical and material. > > > > > > > > > > No, I never said that. I said it is both geometrical and physical. > > > > > > > > > Physical is not synonymous with material. > > > > > > > > > We all know what geometrical means...its like I see you to be shorter > > > > > > > > from a distance, So what is physical mean since you insist that > > > > > > > > physical is not material? > > > > > > > > OK, so let me just clarify something here before answering. > > > > > > > > Are you ASKING a physicist what "physical" means, since you > > > > > > > acknowledge that you may be using it to mean "not geometrical" or > > > > > > > "material", and you've been told that this is not correct? > > > > > > > No you said that length contraction is physical but it is not the same > > > > > > as geometrical and it is definitly not material. > > > > > > "Physical" does not mean geometrical. Nor does it mean "material" > > > > > Ah.... so you invented a new meaning for the word "physical" but you > > > > want to keep that meaning secret because you don't want to educate > > > > me.....right? You are a dork. > > > > Ken, you've repeated said you don't NEED or WANT education. You've > > > repeated said you're 20 years ahead of any physicist in understanding > > > this stuff. Is it any wonder that I don't feed you something you say > > > you don't want? > > > The other possibility is that you don't have different defintion for > > the word physical that is different than material and/or geometric > > projection. > > I see that you are simply hog-tied by emotional incapacitation. You > simply cannot ask an honest question without choking on it. > > "Physical" means what it has always meant to physicists: Pertaining to > the behavior and natural laws of the universe; that which physicists > study, including the interactions of matter, energy, and other > entities that exhibit regular, predictable behavior; having properties > that are subject to regularities and constraints known as laws of > nature or physical laws. But you denied that Physical length contraction in SR is not matter (material) related and here you are saying that it is. Ken Seto > > The geometry of spacetime fits this description, as do non-material > entities like fields of various types. The description of systems in > non-material reference frames is also physical, as are the symmetries > exhibited by the interactions between matter and matter, matter and > non-matter, and between non-matter and non-matter. > > This is not a new definition, even if it is new to you. You just never > learned it correctly. > > > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > If you want the definition of "physical", then feel free to ASK for > > > it. > > > You're pretty quick to whine about what it is that I don't do, but you > > > seem to be unable to ASK for what you want. > > > Does it just make you just choke to ask? > > > > By the way, the definition of "physical" has not changed recently. > > > Just because you've always thought it meant "material" doesn't mean > > > it's EVER meant material to a physicist. > > > > PD > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > > > Likewise, "mammal" does not mean "having four legs and fur" even > > > > > though it includes animals with four legs and fur. > > > > > Nor does "mammal" mean "having flippers and a blowhole" even though it > > > > > includes animals with flipper and a blowhole. > > > > > > > So I ask you to give > > > > > > us the meaning of the word "physical" as related to length contraction > > > > > > in SR. > > > > > > I don't quite understand you, Ken. I asked you directly if you were > > > > > asking for the meaning of physical. You then told me "No." Then you > > > > > asked me for the meaning of "physical". > > > > > > Can't you answer my question directly and honestly? > > > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > > > > > Are you ready for the first time to ASK the meaning of a term that you > > > > > > > do not understand? > > > > > > > > This will be a gauge of your emotional health, Ken. If you find that > > > > > > > you cannot do this without gagging, then it's clear that you're too > > > > > > > emotionally crippled to do anything sensible in physics. > > > > > > > > > Does physical contraction able to kill the > > > > > > > > bug twice? > > > > > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > > > > > > > There is nothing "bogus" about a definition of a term as used by > > > > > > > > > physicists. You either use the term as it is used in physics, or you > > > > > > > > > don't use it at all when you are discussing physics. > > > > > > > > > You may not like this, but there is nothing bogus about it. > > > > > > > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > > > > > > > > > A mammal can mean animals that have four legs and fur.. > > > > > > > > > > > A mammal can mean animals that have flippers and no fur. > > > > > > > > > > > Does this mean that the word mammal is contradictory, or that it > > > > > > > > > > > encompasses both kinds of animals? > > > > > > > > > > > > Only YOU insist that "physical" can mean only one thing or the other, > > > > > > > > > > > because you cannot grasp it being both. > > > > > > > > > > > You might as well insist that mammals can only be one kind of animal > > > > > > > > > > > or the other. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >....etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken Seto > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you think you find contradictions in a theory that has been > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thoroughly examined and thoroughly tested for a hundred years by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hundreds of bright people, this is a really good indication that you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do not understand the theory at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >1. both observers must agree that the bug dies at the instant when the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >tip of the rivet hits it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly correct. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >2. SR predicts that the bug dies at two different instants of time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wrong.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -... > > read more » |