Some Contradictory Claims of SR. [Physics]

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From: Inertial on 13 Jun 2010 06:53

"Hayek" <hayektt(a)nospam.xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:4c14ab4d$0$22913$e4fe514c(a)news.xs4all.nl...
> Inertial wrote:
>> "Hayek" <hayektt(a)nospam.xs4all.nl> wrote in message
>> news:4c149eae$0$22920$e4fe514c(a)news.xs4all.nl...
>>> Inertial wrote:
>>>> "Hayek" <hayektt(a)nospam.xs4all.nl> wrote in message
>>>> news:4c14822b$0$22920$e4fe514c(a)news.xs4all.nl...
>>>>> Inertial wrote:
>>>>>> "Hayek" <hayektt(a)nospam.xs4all.nl> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:4c147c04$0$22933$e4fe514c(a)news.xs4all.nl...
>>>>>>> Inertial wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Hayek" <hayektt(a)nospam.xs4all.nl> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:4c142d47$0$22920$e4fe514c(a)news.xs4all.nl...
>>>>>>>>> Sam Wormley wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/11/10 7:19 PM, Hayek wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> With an absolute frame, the travelling twin stays
>>>>>>>>>>> younger.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are no absolute frames with special properties!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How does light now at what speed to travel ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why does it need to 'know' anything .. it just does what it does.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With the help of the absolute frame.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A frame is just a point of view (and which doesn't ahve any special
>>>>>> properties, so does not 'exist' as such).. it cannot DO anything
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is fairly well described in General Relativity,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope .. you clearly don't understand GR or SR. Get an education
>>>>>> first
>>>>>
>>>>> And you learned there that "it just does what it does" about the
>>>>> photon.
>>>>
>>>> You asked how it knows how to move that fast. It doesn't KNOW anything
>>>> .. it's a photon. Ask sensible questions.
>>>
>>> With Newton's Bucket the question is also asked, how does the water know
>>> that it is rotating. It is just a way of putting the problem.
>>>
>>> I wonder why you even consider that I would think that a photon is
>>> sentient.
>>
>> From the silly question you asked .. that somehow it is up to the photon
>> to know how fast it is going or that it has any 'choice' in that.
>
> It is just silly that you took it literally.
> And then even continued to take it literally.

Don't blame me for your nonsense question

>> Changes in electric and magnetic fields propagate as fast as the universe
>> allows that information to be propagated. AS information cannot
>> instantly cross from one side of the universe to the other .. that it
>> takes finite time .. means that light speed is finite.
>
> And General Relativity tells you that the masses of the universe set this
> speed.

No .. they influence how fast it appears to for non-local observers

> If only you would open your eyes,

I have

> in stead of blaming your discussion partners that they have silly ideas
> about sentient photons.

You did. It was your silly question.. Stop trying to shift the blame to me.
I should expect better

From: kenseto on 13 Jun 2010 09:38

On Jun 12, 1:21 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 9:07 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 11, 4:52 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 11, 1:00 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 11, 9:07 am, Sam Wormley <sworml...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On 6/11/10 7:36 AM, kenseto wrote:
>
> > > > > > No from the hole point of view the bug is still alive just before the
> > > > > > head of the rivet hits the wall of the hole. However from the rivet
> > > > > > point of view the bug is already deadat the just before the head of
> > > > > > the rivet hit the wall of the hole.
>
> > > > > Pick on perspective or the other, Seto. You can't have both!
>
> > > > Wormy the bug cannot be both alive and dead at the moment when the
> > > > head of the rivet hits the wall of the hole....both observers must
> > > > agree on whether the bug is alive or dead but not both.
>
> > > No, Ken.
> > > The order of events is frame dependent.
> > > It is not true that both observers must agree on the state of the bug
> > > *when* the rivet head hits.
> > > The "when" is the part that trips you up.
>
> > Hey idiot... the bug is dead or alive is an absolute event
>
> "Absolute event" is a term you made up, and has no meaning in physics.
> The word "event" has a specific meaning in physics, even if you're
> unaware of it.
> The order of spacelike-separated events depends on the frame.
>
> > The hole
> > clock and the rivet clock are running at different rates give you the
> > two perspective. When you corrected for the rate difference you will
> > see that the rivet's perspective is the correct perspective.
>
> In physics, Ken, it is important that one not favor one reference
> frame over another as being "the correct one". Physical laws are the
> same in all reference frames, though the quantities in the laws will
> vary frame to frame and the description of events will be different in
> two different frames.

Sure there is the correct perspective. The following will demonstrate
that clearly:
The hole is 1.2 ft long at its rest frame.
The bug is 0.1 ft tall.
The rivet length is 2 ft. long at its rest frame.
Gamma is 2.
From the hole point of view just before the rivet head hits the wall
of the hole:
the length of the rivet is: 2/2=1 ft.
Therefore if length contraction is physical or material the bug is
still alive just before the head of the rivet hits the wall of the
hole.

From the rivet point of view the length of the hole is: 1.2/2=0.6 ft
and the length of the rivet remains 2 ft. Therefore the bug is
already
dead way before the head of the rivet hit the wall of the hole.

What this mean is that you cannot claim both perspectives at the same
time. The only way to resolve this is that length contraction is not
physical or
material....mainstream physicists resolve this by claiming that length
contraction is a gemetric projection effect....not physical or
material as you claimed.

Ken Seto

>
>
>
>
>
> > Ken Seto- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

From: Sam Wormley on 13 Jun 2010 09:59

On 6/13/10 5:02 AM, G. L. Bradford wrote:
> Some relativity?! He diagrams absolute space (he can't even begin to
> envision relativity of space), exactly the same space absolute to both!
> He doesn't get multi-dimensional (as in a perfect sphere [within] a
> perfect sphere [within] a perfect sphere....to infinity inside and
> outside, but all in fact one and the same perfect sphere). All he can
> see to do is stretch exactly the same 1-dimension of time [alone] twice
> over!

Bradford doesn't understand spacetime diagrams. Time for some
self education!
http://www.google.com/search?q=spacetime+diagram

Physics FAQ: Are There Any Good Books on Relativity Theory?
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Administrivia/rel_booklist.html

From: kenseto on 13 Jun 2010 10:01

On Jun 12, 3:43 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
wrote:
> kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> writes:
> >On Jun 11, 2:15 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
> >wrote:
> >> kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> writes:
> >> >No....from the hole point of view the bug is still alive just before
> >> ^^^^^^
> >> That word indicates two events involved (specifically their time order).
> >Hey idiot...the bug is alive or dead is one event.
>
> Wrong. The bug being alive or dead is a state of being, not an event.
> Look up what the word "event" means in SR. It indicates a particular
> location in spacetime, x,y,z,t.

The bug is dead is an event....it happened when the rivet head hits
the wall of the hole. The bug is still alive is an event.....it
happened when the head of the rivet hits the wall of the hole. This
means that according to Sr when the head of the rivet hits the wall of
the hole the bug is both dead and alive.

>
> You used the word "before". That word indicates how two events are
> related in time order. In this case, one event is the head of the rivet
> hitting the wall. The other event is the squishing of the bug (not the
> bug being dead or alive). The two observers disagree on the order of
> events. They do *not* disagree with the fact that the bug started out
> alive but then was squished by the rivet.
>
> >> >> You don't even need to invoke SR to have ambiguous order of events.
> >> >> Consider two stars A and B, and two observers, a and b. All four
> >> >> (stars and observers) are stationary w/respect to each other.
> >> >> Observer a is 1 light year from Star A and 10 light years from Star B.
> >> >> Observer b is 1 light year from Star B and 10 light years from Star A.
> >> >> Observer a sees Star A go nova, then 9 years later sees Star B go nova.
> >> >> Observer b sees Star B go nova, then 9 years later sees Star A go nova.
> >> >> Which star went nova first?
>
> >> No comment on this? Which star went nova first? No SR involved other
> >> than a finite speed of light.
>
> Still no comment on this? Here is an extremely simple example of two
> events whose order depends only on the position of the observer. No
> SR funniness like time dilation or length contraction involved whatsoever,
> the only SR effect is a finite speed of light.

From: kenseto on 13 Jun 2010 10:20

On Jun 12, 1:23 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 9:14 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 11, 4:54 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 11, 1:13 pm, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 11, 11:14 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jun 10, 9:01 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jun 9, 12:34 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Jun 9, 9:15 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Jun 8, 11:29 am, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On Jun 8, 8:35 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > Some Contradictory Claims of SR:
> > > > > > > > > > 1. In the bug and the rivet paradox: From the hole point of view the
> > > > > > > > > > bug is still alive just before the rivet head hits the wall of the
> > > > > > > > > > hole. From the rivet point of view the bug is already dead just before
> > > > > > > > > > the head of the rivet hits the wall of the hole.
>
> > > > > > > > > This is not a contradiction. The sequence of events is something that
> > > > > > > > > depends on the frame, and this is experimentally confirmed. Nothing
> > > > > > > > > that actually is observed to happen in nature can be considered to be
> > > > > > > > > contradictory. Insisting that the sequence of events SHOULD be
> > > > > > > > > something that is independent of frame, in the face of experimental
> > > > > > > > > evidence to the contrary, is simply detachment from reality.
>
> > > > > > > > Yes it is a contradiction. The bug cannot be both dead and alive when
> > > > > > > > the head of the rivet hits the wall of the hole.
>
> > > > > > > The "when the head of the rivet hits the wall of the hole" depends on
> > > > > > > the frame of reference.
>
> > > > > > No it doesn't....it is only one event.
>
> > > > > No, Ken. You do not understand what an event is. An event is a
> > > > > happenstance that is labeled by a particular location and a particular
> > > > > time. The bug dying and the rivet head hitting the wall occur at
> > > > > different locations and different times. They are separate events.. The
> > > > > sequence of events depends on reference frame.
>
> > > > Hey idiot.....the time of the event is not changed....the bug id dead
> > > > or the bug is still alive but not both before the head of the rivet
> > > > hits the wall of the hole. The hole observer must agree with the rivet
> > > > observer that the bug is already dead before the head of the rivet
> > > > hits the wall of the hole.
>
> > > No, the two observers do NOT have to agree on the sequence of events.
> > > Two observers do NOT have to agree that event A has occurred or not
> > > occurred *when* event B has happened.\
>
> > No idiot....they must agree on whethe rthe bug is dead or alive.
>
> Not at the time the rivet head hits the wall, they don't.
> No, Ken, they do not.
>
> It is true that the bug will be dead in both frames. But it isn't true
> that this will be the case before the rivet head hits the wall in both
> frames.

The hole is 1.2 ft long at its rest frame.
The bug is 0.1 ft tall.
The rivet length is 2 ft. long at its rest frame.
Gamma is 2.
From the hole point of view just before the rivet head hits the wall
of the hole:
the length of the rivet is: 2/2=1 ft.
Therefore if length contraction is physical or material the bug is
still alive just before the head of the rivet hits the wall of the
hole.

From the rivet point of view the length of the hole is: 1.2/2=0.6 ft
and the length of the rivet remains 2 ft. Therefore the bug is
already
dead way before the head of the rivet hit the wall of the hole.

What this mean is that you cannot claim both perspectives at the same
time. The only way to resolve this is that length contraction is not
physical or
material....mainstream physicists resolve this by claiming that
length
contraction is a gemetric projection effect....not physical or
material as you claimed.

Ken Seto

>
> The rest of your made-up nonsense is ignored.
>
>
>
> > The
> > hole clock and the rivet clock are rnning at different rates and
> > that's why you claim that the bug dies at different times. If you
> > correct for the rate difference of the two clock you will arrive at
> > the correct persoective that the bug is already dead just before the
> > head of the rivet hits the wall of the hole. What this means is that
> > length contraction is not physically (materially) real....that's why
> > more learned SRian such as Tom Roberts says that length contraction in
> > SR is a geometric projection effect.
>
> > > >...what this means is that length
> > > > contraction is not material or physical as you claimed. BTW that's why
> > > > the more learned SRians such as Tom Roberts said that length
> > > > contraction in SR is not physical (or material)....it is an apparant
> > > > effect.
>
> > > > > > If you insist that the
> > > > > > observers disagree the time of the event then it is because their
> > > > > > clocks are running at different rates. But this will not make the bug
> > > > > > is dead and alive at the same time....at the instant when the rivet
> > > > > > head hits the wall of the hole.
>
> > > > > > > As I said, the sequence of events depends on the frame.
> > > > > > > In one frame, the bug dies before the head of the rivet strikes.
> > > > > > > In another frame, the bug dies after the head of the rivet strikes.
> > > > > > > You have taken this to mean that the bug is both dead and alive when
> > > > > > > the rivet strikes. This is, of course, a stupid conclusion to draw.
>
> > > > > > > > > > 2. In the barn and the pole paradox: From the barn point of view an 80
> > > > > > > > > > ft pole can fit into a 40 ft. barn with both doors close
> > > > > > > > > > simultaneously. From the pole point of view an 80 ft. pole cannot fit
> > > > > > > > > > into a 40 ft barn with both doors close simultaneously.
>
> > > > > > > > > This is not a contradiction. The simultaneity of the doors closing is
> > > > > > > > > something hat depends on the frame, and this is experimentally
> > > > > > > > > confirmed. Nothing that actually is observed to happen in nature can
> > > > > > > > > be considered to be contradictory. Insisting that the simultaneity of
> > > > > > > > > events SHOULD be something that is independent of frame, in the face
> > > > > > > > > of experimental evidence to the contrary, is simply detachment from
> > > > > > > > > reality.
>
> > > > > > > > Yes it is a contradiction. The pole can fit into the barn with both
> > > > > > > > doors close simultaneously and the poles cannot fit into the barn with
> > > > > > > > both doors close simultaneously.
>
> > > > > > > No, SR does not make the second statement, because in the pole frame,
> > > > > > > the doors do not close simultaneously AT ALL.
>
> > > > > > Yes SR makes such statement....the longer pole cannot fit into the
> > > > > > barn and that's why the doors cannot be closed simultaneously.
>
> > > > > No, Ken, that is NOT what SR says. Stop making stuff up.
>
> > > > > > Ken Seto
>
> > > > > > >So it would be an
> > > > > > > incorrect statement to say that the pole does not fit in the barn when
> > > > > > > the two doors close simultaneously.
>
> > > > > > > There is no contradiction.
>
> > > > > > > You are an idiot.
>
> > > > > > > > > > 3. In Einstein's train gedanken: Two lightning strikes hit the ends of
> > > > > > > > > > the train simultaneously.....the track observer sees the light fronts
> > > > > > > > > > arrive at him simultaneously but the train observer M' will not see
> > > > > > > > > > the light fronts arrive at him simultaneously...according to SR, M'
> > > > > > > > > > is moving with respect to the light fronts (closing velocities) and
> > > > > > > > > > thus give different arriving velocities of the light fronts. This
> > > > > > > > > > assertion violates the SR postulate that the speed of light in the
> > > > > > > > > > train is isotropic.
>
> > > > > > > > > This is not contradictory. SR says that the RELATIVE speed of light in
> > > > > > > > > any frame is isotropic, but it does NOT say that the CLOSING speed of
> > > > > > > > > light in any frame is isotropic, and in fact SR says that the closing
> > > > > > > > > speed of light in any frame may well be anisotropic. Confusing
> > > > > > > > > RELATIVE speed and CLOSING speed in what SR actually says is an error
> > > > > > > > > on Seto's part and no one else's.
>
> > > > > > > > Yes it is a contradiction. M' cannot measure the speed of light to be
> > > > > > > > isotropic if he has different closing speeds wrt the light fronts from
> > > > > > > > the ends of the train.
>
> > > > > > > Yes, he can. Light speed is not closing speed. They are two completely
> > > > > > > different quantities. Light speed can be isotropic and closing speed
> > > > > > > be anisotropic, BECAUSE THEY ARE DIFFERENT THINGS. Only you do not
> > > > > > > understand this, and get the two confused.
>
> > > > > > > This is because you are confused in general.
>
> > > > > > > > Ken Seto
>
> > > > > > > > > OK, so there are no contradictions in SR after all.
> > > > > > > > > All Seto has discovered is that his expectations about what should be
> > > > > > > > > frame-independent are not correct, according to experiment, and that
> > > > > > > > > he is confusing two completely different terms.
>
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