The Perfect Computer - 36 bits?
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From: Andrew Swallow on 28 Mar 2007 08:18 jmfbahciv(a)aol.com wrote: > In article <k8idnfPPHuSawZTbRVnyjAA(a)bt.com>, > Andrew Swallow <am.swallow(a)btopenworld.com> wrote: >> krw wrote: >>> In article <DZSdnaHeS49TzpTbnZ2dnUVZ8tXinZ2d(a)bt.com>, >>> am.swallow(a)btopenworld.com says... >>>> krw wrote: >>>>> In article <fqWdnV-JLsRJ_ZXbRVnyiAA(a)bt.com>, >>>>> am.swallow(a)btopenworld.com says... >>>>>> Morten Reistad wrote: >>>>>> [snip] >>>>>> >>>>>>> DEC _did_ come back with the alpha, just as soon as they had managed >>>>>>> to deVAXify their brains. Except, by then the trust in the company had >>>>>>> evaporated. >>>>>> The only sensible use for the Alpha was to run microcode as a VAX. >>>>>> When chip manufacturing technology allowed CISC CPUs on a single chip >>>>>> the cost advantages of RISC were over. >>>>> I think you'll find there are a few people who will disagree with >>>>> you. >>>>> >>>> Probably but were they customers of DEC? >>> Every Alpha ran VAX microcode? Dunno, never seen a real live Alpha. >>> >> The Alpha was the replacement for the VAX, so a lot of the software >> running on the Alpha was VAX/VMS software. The software was either >> recompiled or run using a software emulators. > > I have a plaque given to JMF for his Alpha work. It is customary > for applications to be recompiled when going from one architecture > to another. This is a fact today. > >> So a 500 MHz Alpha >> ran like a 50 MHz VAX with expensive ram. > > YOu are grasping at straws. The emulator was a method to help > customer go from one architecture to the other. > I'm coming to the conclusion that you are not interested in learning > a damned thing. No. I am telling you how DEC committed suicide. The customers did not ask to change architectures. Every cent spent changing architecture was a cent was that gave the customer a good reason for not buying an IBM computer or a PC clone. These conversion costs were 10 to 100 times the cost of say a Data General computer. Any competitor had to charge at least $1 million less for his machine than DEC's price for a VAX/VMS. Difficult when DEC was charging $120,000 for its product. This cost of conversion gave DEC its monopoly. When DEC forced its customers to buy a rival to the VAX they could chose the Alpha or a real rival. The real rivals were cheaper and had polite support organisations. Andrew Swallow
From: Jan Vorbrüggen on 28 Mar 2007 08:18 > A much more reasonable, and possibly true, assertion would be that the > advantage of RISC architectures decreased over time. However, even as > late as the Pentium 1, there was a huge advantage for RISC > architectures. With the Pentium Pro that became less clear, although > RISCs still ruled the roost for FP heavy applications. Yes, I quite agree with that. There is one particular case where the playing ground was as even as possible to allow comparison of two implementations of a CISC and a RISC architecture: The NVAX+ implementation of the VAX architecture and the 21064 implementation of the Alpha architecture (IIRC) both used the same design tools in the same company, the same foundry and the same process. And there sure were competent people working all aspects of the design on both teams. The end result: the Alpha processor was, by most measures, about twice faster than the VAX. Jan
From: Jan Vorbrüggen on 28 Mar 2007 08:23 > Wrong. DEC stopped shipping sources. That means that they > stopped playing _with_ their customers. And how was that relevant? If you wanted to get the VMS sources on microfiche, it was easy enough, at least for the first decade of VMS's life. Almost nobody cared, though. > People could buy DEC's stuff outright and then do anything they > wanted with them. That was how DEC became a billion dollar > company as the "ant-IBM". Just so, and it still was the case during the VAX and VMS lifetime, except for limited episodes. Jan
From: Jan Vorbrüggen on 28 Mar 2007 08:25 > No. What happened with that was they sent out signals that VMS > was going the way of TOPS-10. The customers were savvy enough > to do their own migration plans off the platform without telling > anybody. At the VAX to Alpha transition? Nonsense. Jan
From: jmfbahciv on 28 Mar 2007 08:39
In article <RoWdnSbeC5-WwJfbnZ2dnUVZ8saonZ2d(a)bt.com>, Andrew Swallow <am.swallow(a)btopenworld.com> wrote: >jmfbahciv(a)aol.com wrote: >> In article <k8idnfPPHuSawZTbRVnyjAA(a)bt.com>, >> Andrew Swallow <am.swallow(a)btopenworld.com> wrote: >>> krw wrote: >>>> In article <DZSdnaHeS49TzpTbnZ2dnUVZ8tXinZ2d(a)bt.com>, >>>> am.swallow(a)btopenworld.com says... >>>>> krw wrote: >>>>>> In article <fqWdnV-JLsRJ_ZXbRVnyiAA(a)bt.com>, >>>>>> am.swallow(a)btopenworld.com says... >>>>>>> Morten Reistad wrote: >>>>>>> [snip] >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> DEC _did_ come back with the alpha, just as soon as they had managed >>>>>>>> to deVAXify their brains. Except, by then the trust in the company had >>>>>>>> evaporated. >>>>>>> The only sensible use for the Alpha was to run microcode as a VAX. >>>>>>> When chip manufacturing technology allowed CISC CPUs on a single chip >>>>>>> the cost advantages of RISC were over. >>>>>> I think you'll find there are a few people who will disagree with >>>>>> you. >>>>>> >>>>> Probably but were they customers of DEC? >>>> Every Alpha ran VAX microcode? Dunno, never seen a real live Alpha. >>>> >>> The Alpha was the replacement for the VAX, so a lot of the software >>> running on the Alpha was VAX/VMS software. The software was either >>> recompiled or run using a software emulators. >> >> I have a plaque given to JMF for his Alpha work. It is customary >> for applications to be recompiled when going from one architecture >> to another. This is a fact today. >> >>> So a 500 MHz Alpha >>> ran like a 50 MHz VAX with expensive ram. >> >> YOu are grasping at straws. The emulator was a method to help >> customer go from one architecture to the other. >> I'm coming to the conclusion that you are not interested in learning >> a damned thing. > >No. I am telling you how DEC committed suicide. [emotion takes 2 mile x 2 mile Kleenix and wipes] <snip stupidness> /BAH |