The Symmetric Twin Paradox
in [Relativity]
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From: eric gisse on 18 Jun 2010 22:22 colp wrote: > On Jun 18, 4:18 pm, stevendaryl3...(a)yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) > wrote: >> colp says... >> >> >> >> >B. Twin Paradox (Symmetric) >> >We shall set forth a new version of the twin paradox which is >> >truly symmetric and this will introduce a true paradox and we >> >shall provide a solution. Suppose Taurai unlike in the previous >> >version, decided to be adventurous too. He decides to rocket >> >into space and travels not with his twin brother but all by himself >> >and instead of Alpha-Centauri he travels at the same constant >> >relativistic speed as Taurwi [this speed is measured by >> >the Earth bound observers] to an imaginary constellation (call >> >it Constellation Alpha-Christina) which is equidistant and directly >> >opposite to Alpha Centauri along the line of sight joining >> >the Earth and Alpha Centauri. >> >> >On their day of departure, their family and friends bid them >> >farewell and wish thema safe travel. Withoutmuch say, on the >> >day of reunion, the family and friends [who all have studied >> >physics at university and understand very well the STR] have >> >no doubt that they [the Twins] will all have aged the same. >> >The big question is, will the twins agree with their family and >> >friends that they have aged the same? The truth is that, each >> >of the twins will see the other as having aged less than they so >> >they would not agree with their family and friends that they >> >must be the same age. Herein we have a paradox! Who is >> >older than who here? >> >> There is no paradox here! > > The paradox is that SR predicts that each twin will be younger than > the other at the completion of the experiment. Are you stupid on a full time basis, or just part time? [...]
From: paparios on 18 Jun 2010 22:33 On 18 jun, 17:11, colp <c...(a)solder.ath.cx> wrote: > On Jun 19, 12:56 am, "papar...(a)gmail.com" <papar...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On 17 jun, 22:33, colp <c...(a)solder.ath.cx> wrote: > > > > On Jun 18, 2:13 pm, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: > > > > > Please reproduce your working, and I'll point out the errors. I don't have > > > > access to the article, only your comments on it. > > > > Here's the relevant text from the article. The previous version being > > > discussed was the classic twin paradox (Taurai and Tauwi are the names > > > of the twins). > > > > B. Twin Paradox (Symmetric) > > > We shall set forth a new version of the twin paradox which is > > > truly symmetric and this will introduce a true paradox and we > > > shall provide a solution. Suppose Taurai unlike in the previous > > > version, decided to be adventurous too. He decides to rocket > > > into space and travels not with his twin brother but all by himself > > > and instead of Alpha-Centauri he travels at the same constant > > > relativistic speed as Taurwi [this speed is measured by > > > the Earth bound observers] to an imaginary constellation (call > > > it Constellation Alpha-Christina) which is equidistant and directly > > > opposite to Alpha Centauri along the line of sight joining > > > the Earth and Alpha Centauri. > > > > On their day of departure, their family and friends bid them > > > farewell and wish thema safe travel. Withoutmuch say, on the > > > day of reunion, the family and friends [who all have studied > > > physics at university and understand very well the STR] have > > > no doubt that they [the Twins] will all have aged the same. > > > The big question is, will the twins agree with their family and > > > friends that they have aged the same? The truth is that, each > > > of the twins will see the other as having aged less than they so > > > they would not agree with their family and friends that they > > > must be the same age. Herein we have a paradox! Who is > > > older than who here? > > > First typical mistake of students. > > ... is believing that they have been told without proving it for > themselves. > So you are guilty as charged!!! You have been defending these young south african students who do not understand a bit about SRT, while not checking by yourself if their assertion were right or wrong. > > What is relevant is that each twin > > has a clock which, according to his own readings and knowledge, is > > ticking exactly like it was before the travel. > > No, what is relevant is the prediction that SR makes about each twin's > observation of the other's clock.- You don't have a clue about how that observation is made. In order to "see" the other twin clock, you have to use light (that is, either a very large telescope or light signals emitted towards the other twin). The observation, then, will be of the state of the clock (in the past) when that light signal was generated. In your famous paper, that implies to see each other clock at a distance of several light-years, meaning the light showing the clock reading has to travel for several years before arriving to the observing twin. The prediction of SRT with respect to this gedanken is that both traveling clocks, after the reunion, will show exactly the same time, while the stay at home clock will show more time. Miguel Rios
From: Androcles on 18 Jun 2010 22:51 <paparios(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:2d1943db-bb0d-4af3-a484-e0eff77a2e47(a)i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com... On 18 jun, 17:11, colp <c...(a)solder.ath.cx> wrote: > On Jun 19, 12:56 am, "papar...(a)gmail.com" <papar...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On 17 jun, 22:33, colp <c...(a)solder.ath.cx> wrote: > > > > On Jun 18, 2:13 pm, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: > > > > > Please reproduce your working, and I'll point out the errors. I > > > > don't have > > > > access to the article, only your comments on it. > > > > Here's the relevant text from the article. The previous version being > > > discussed was the classic twin paradox (Taurai and Tauwi are the names > > > of the twins). > > > > B. Twin Paradox (Symmetric) > > > We shall set forth a new version of the twin paradox which is > > > truly symmetric and this will introduce a true paradox and we > > > shall provide a solution. Suppose Taurai unlike in the previous > > > version, decided to be adventurous too. He decides to rocket > > > into space and travels not with his twin brother but all by himself > > > and instead of Alpha-Centauri he travels at the same constant > > > relativistic speed as Taurwi [this speed is measured by > > > the Earth bound observers] to an imaginary constellation (call > > > it Constellation Alpha-Christina) which is equidistant and directly > > > opposite to Alpha Centauri along the line of sight joining > > > the Earth and Alpha Centauri. > > > > On their day of departure, their family and friends bid them > > > farewell and wish thema safe travel. Withoutmuch say, on the > > > day of reunion, the family and friends [who all have studied > > > physics at university and understand very well the STR] have > > > no doubt that they [the Twins] will all have aged the same. > > > The big question is, will the twins agree with their family and > > > friends that they have aged the same? The truth is that, each > > > of the twins will see the other as having aged less than they so > > > they would not agree with their family and friends that they > > > must be the same age. Herein we have a paradox! Who is > > > older than who here? > > > First typical mistake of students. > > ... is believing that they have been told without proving it for > themselves. > So you are guilty as charged!!! You have been defending these young south african students who do not understand a bit about SRT, while not checking by yourself if their assertion were right or wrong. > > What is relevant is that each twin > > has a clock which, according to his own readings and knowledge, is > > ticking exactly like it was before the travel. > > No, what is relevant is the prediction that SR makes about each twin's > observation of the other's clock.- You don't have a clue about how that observation is made. In order to "see" the other twin clock, you have to use light (that is, either a very large telescope or light signals emitted towards the other twin). The observation, then, will be of the state of the clock (in the past) when that light signal was generated. In your famous paper, that implies to see each other clock at a distance of several light-years, meaning the light showing the clock reading has to travel for several years before arriving to the observing twin. The prediction of SRT with respect to this gedanken is that both traveling clocks, after the reunion, will show exactly the same time, while the stay at home clock will show more time. Miguel Rios ================================================== These days they'd use web cams to look at the other's clock, cell phones and email to communicate. SRT didn't predict that.
From: colp on 19 Jun 2010 02:37 On Jun 19, 11:20 am, xxein <xx...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > On Jun 17, 12:48 am, colp <c...(a)solder.ath.cx> wrote: > > > P.S. I'm talking about the symmetric twin paradox as described by the > > following paper: > > >http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008arXiv0804.2008N > > > "We introduce a symmetric twin paradox whose solution can not be found > > within the currently accepted provinces of the STR if one adopts the > > currently accepted philosophy of the STR namely that it is impossible > > for an inertial observer to determine their state of motion." > > xxein: That small part is very, very true. But it is hardly an > answer as I said. So what do you think the answer is?
From: Androcles on 19 Jun 2010 02:51
"colp" <colp(a)solder.ath.cx> wrote in message news:281cb78e-2b02-4ef9-9be3-7df193b6cfd9(a)11g2000prv.googlegroups.com... On Jun 19, 11:20 am, xxein <xx...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > On Jun 17, 12:48 am, colp <c...(a)solder.ath.cx> wrote: > > > P.S. I'm talking about the symmetric twin paradox as described by the > > following paper: > > >http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008arXiv0804.2008N > > > "We introduce a symmetric twin paradox whose solution can not be found > > within the currently accepted provinces of the STR if one adopts the > > currently accepted philosophy of the STR namely that it is impossible > > for an inertial observer to determine their state of motion." > > xxein: That small part is very, very true. But it is hardly an > answer as I said. So what do you think the answer is? ============================================= xxein thinks it is an artefactual/superficially imposed yin-yang of sorts. |