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From: Michael Stemper on 26 Feb 2010 12:52 In article <7uomssFvk0U1(a)mid.individual.net>, Robert Bannister <robban1(a)bigpond.com> writes: >tony cooper wrote: >> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:14:04 +0800, Robert Bannister <robban1(a)bigpond.com> wrote: >>> Ant�nio Marques wrote: >>> >>>> It's not what you think. Either the Church's message is universal and >>>> Christ did found one Church, or it isn't. >>> Now there's a new one: the first I've heard that Jesus founded or even >>> wanted a church. >> >> I thought he delegated the job to Peter. > >I don't think so. I believe he did ask Peter and the others to keep on >spreading the word, but I have seen no mention of churches, priests, >buildings, vestments or choir boys in the New Testament. Try Mt 16:17-18. -- Michael F. Stemper #include <Standard_Disclaimer> This sentence no verb.
From: sjdevnull on 26 Feb 2010 14:30 On Feb 26, 12:52 pm, mstem...(a)walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote: > In article <7uomssFvk...(a)mid.individual.net>, Robert Bannister <robb...(a)bigpond.com> writes: > >tony cooper wrote: > >> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:14:04 +0800, Robert Bannister <robb...(a)bigpond.com> wrote: > >>> Ant nio Marques wrote: > > >>>> It's not what you think. Either the Church's message is universal and > >>>> Christ did found one Church, or it isn't. > >>> Now there's a new one: the first I've heard that Jesus founded or even > >>> wanted a church. > > >> I thought he delegated the job to Peter. > > >I don't think so. I believe he did ask Peter and the others to keep on > >spreading the word, but I have seen no mention of churches, priests, > >buildings, vestments or choir boys in the New Testament. > > Try Mt 16:17-18. The closest I see there is the word "build": 17And Jesus answering said to him, `Happy art thou, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. 18`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; (Young's Literal Translation) Note that "ecclesia" is sometimes mistranslated as "church"; in reality it meant "assembly"--the most well-known "ecclesia" prior to the writing of Matthew would have been the democratic gatherings of Athens, which went under that name. There's no reason to think that it meant anything like the organized hierarchy of the modern Church.
From: Peter T. Daniels on 26 Feb 2010 15:51 On Feb 26, 2:30 pm, "sjdevn...(a)yahoo.com" <sjdevn...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Feb 26, 12:52 pm, mstem...(a)walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) > wrote: > > > > > > > In article <7uomssFvk...(a)mid.individual.net>, Robert Bannister <robb...(a)bigpond.com> writes: > > >tony cooper wrote: > > >> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:14:04 +0800, Robert Bannister <robb...(a)bigpond.com> wrote: > > >>> Ant nio Marques wrote: > > > >>>> It's not what you think. Either the Church's message is universal and > > >>>> Christ did found one Church, or it isn't. > > >>> Now there's a new one: the first I've heard that Jesus founded or even > > >>> wanted a church. > > > >> I thought he delegated the job to Peter. > > > >I don't think so. I believe he did ask Peter and the others to keep on > > >spreading the word, but I have seen no mention of churches, priests, > > >buildings, vestments or choir boys in the New Testament. > > > Try Mt 16:17-18. > > The closest I see there is the word "build": > 17And Jesus answering said to him, `Happy art thou, Simon Bar-Jona, > because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to thee, but my Father who > is in the heavens. > 18`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I > will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against > it; > (Young's Literal Translation) > > Note that "ecclesia" is sometimes mistranslated as "church"; in > reality it meant "assembly"--the most well-known "ecclesia" prior to > the writing of Matthew would have been the democratic gatherings of > Athens, which went under that name. There's no reason to think that > it meant anything like the organized hierarchy of the modern Church.- What the hell is "Young's Literal Translation"? Is that one of those misguided efforts to render every word of the Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek the same way in English every time it appears? When was it done?
From: Robert Bannister on 26 Feb 2010 18:29 Michael Stemper wrote: > In article <7uomssFvk0U1(a)mid.individual.net>, Robert Bannister <robban1(a)bigpond.com> writes: >> tony cooper wrote: >>> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:14:04 +0800, Robert Bannister <robban1(a)bigpond.com> wrote: >>>> Ant�nio Marques wrote: >>>> >>>>> It's not what you think. Either the Church's message is universal and >>>>> Christ did found one Church, or it isn't. >>>> Now there's a new one: the first I've heard that Jesus founded or even >>>> wanted a church. >>> I thought he delegated the job to Peter. >> I don't think so. I believe he did ask Peter and the others to keep on >> spreading the word, but I have seen no mention of churches, priests, >> buildings, vestments or choir boys in the New Testament. > > Try Mt 16:17-18. > I wonder which word was used for "church", and did it mean "temple" or "house" or "society" or exactly what? -- Rob Bannister
From: Robert Bannister on 26 Feb 2010 18:31
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: > Robert Bannister <robban1(a)bigpond.com> writes: > >> Ant�nio Marques wrote: >> >>> It's not what you think. Either the Church's message is universal >>> and Christ did found one Church, or it isn't. >> Now there's a new one: the first I've heard that Jesus founded or even >> wanted a church. > > And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock > I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail > against it. [Matt. 16:18, KJV] > As I said in another post, what word is used for "church" and what did it mean at the time? I somehow doubt it meant bricks and mortar and costly raiment. -- Rob Bannister |