The world has never seen such freezing heat
in [Design]
|
Prev: Class D audio driver with external mosfets
Next: NE162 mixer: input/output impedance in balanced mode?
From: Whata Fool on 1 Dec 2008 22:10 don(a)manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote: >In article <492d7873$0$87074$815e3792(a)news.qwest.net>, Al Bedo wrote: >>bill.sloman(a)ieee.org wrote: >>[regarding orbital variation with feedback] >> >>> The point is that we need a healthy dose of positive feedback to make >>> the explanation work and similar positive feedback mechanisms could >>> turn today's barely significant global warming into an end-Permian >>> style global extinction. It isn't a high probability scenario, but we >>> are taling about the only planet we've got. >> >>So what feedback are you suggesting? >> >>Not ice/albedo feedback of the glacials since that ice >>extended to mid-latitudes where there was enough insolation >>to matter. > > Insolation at even the North Pole in late spring is very significant. >Have a look at 1366 watts times sine of 23 degrees, 24 hours a day. And >only 2.35 times as much atmosphere to go through as when sun is at zenith. > Ice melt in the Arctic matters a lot in the second half of spring and >the first half of summer. > > The Antarctic also has seasonal sea ice - though more stable than that >of the Arctic, since minimum late summer extent of Antarctic sea ice is >close to nonexistent. Changes in Arctic sea ice carry into the next year. > >>Not water vapor feedback because that doesn't seem to be occurring. > > It did as the Ice Ages surged and ebbed. The thermal time constant of >the oceans is a century or two - I think a degree rise sustained for a few >decades will produce a measurable increase in atmospheric water vapor >worldwide. > >>What then? > > Both those, along with ability of oceans to dissolve CO2 decreasing as >they warm. Add up those 3 positive feedbacks, and their combined effect >to amplify effects of the Milankovitch cycles was apparently great. > ><SNIP from here> > > - Don Klipstein (don(a)misty.com) The oceans don't need to dissolve CO2 to remove it from the air, there is enough carbonate life and algae to handle pretty much all that man is releasing. If forests were harvested before they burn, it could help a lot, and when/if ethanol or butanol or biodiesel is made from cellulose, that will help. Every little thing can help, and an important one is battery and ultracapacitor technology for electric cars. As if a mere 388 parts per million could make a big difference. :-)
From: Don Klipstein on 1 Dec 2008 22:27 In <ipdni4lcbe7eq0541k5c1svijan3cvkh7t(a)4ax.com>, W. Fool said in part: >bill.sloman(a)ieee.org wrote: > >>On the evidence available, you've screwed yourself, by confusing >>optimistic claims about how bioethanol might score like if some >>researcher or other got enough research grants to support the >>development of their favourite scheme with the dire reality of of the >>schemes that Dubbya has been subsidising. > > You are overemphasizing the political aspect of US ethanol >production. > > In summer, regulations (EPA, etc.) require lower emission >fuels, and 10 percent ethanol is one way gasoline is blended for >big city use. > > > Also, to reduce oil imports, a long term project of ethanol >(from sugar, not corn) is important. > > In case of corn shortages, ethanol plants can be closed, >which is a much better situation that the existing problem with >rice, which will become a real bad problem for people unable or >unwilling to switch to a lower cost or more plentiful staple food. > > Rice farmers are leaving the farms and going into other, >higher paying and less labor intensive jobs, and people will >suffer. How about switchgrass? That has been noted a fair amount as an ethanol crop. Grows even where food cash crops don't and it's good for little but ethanol and feeding grasshoppers and maybe goats. By any chance is the main obstacle the lack of a lobby for what is currently not a crop? - Don Klipstein (don(a)misty.com)
From: Bill Ward on 1 Dec 2008 23:10 On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 00:14:02 +0000, Don Klipstein wrote: > In <pan.2008.11.23.15.47.04.647543(a)REMOVETHISix.netcom.com>, Bill Ward > wrote in part: >> >>Wrong fiasco. I meant this one: >> >>http://www.denisdutton.com/cooling_world.htm > <SNIP> >>Here's the original, with graphics: >> >>http://denisdutton.com/newsweek_coolingworld.pdf >> >>> but subsequent observations doesn't suggest that it is to slowing down >>> any more. >>> >>> Do try to get your facts right. >> >>Right about now, you should be feeling a bit foolish. > > Check out HadCRUT-3v - good enough for The Register! > > Graph: > > http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/climon/data/themi/g17.htm > > Data in text form: > > http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/hadcrut3vgl.txt It's all depends on how you pick your data: http://www.worldclimatereport.com/wp-images/loehle_fig2.JPG http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2400
From: Don Klipstein on 1 Dec 2008 23:09 In article <492C6E84.14F1FF0A(a)hotmail.com>, Eeyore wrote: > >James Arthur wrote: > >> bill.sloman(a)ieee.org wrote: >> > Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> > >> >> Besides, droughts are normal. They happened long before "AGW". Read >> >>a bible for instance. >> > >> > The current series of drought years in Australia doesn't look any too >> > normal. Modern records didn't start until January 1788 and weren't >> > all that comprehensive for the next fifty years, but they don't record >> > anything like as bad as the current sequence of dry years >> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drought_in_Australia >> >> "1880 to 1886 Drought in Victoria" >> >> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/nov/08/australia.drought >> >> "With many regions in their fifth year of drought, the >> government yesterday called an emergency water summit >> in Canberra." > >So a shorter drought than the 1880 to 1886 one ! Damn that CO2 in 1880 ! And how much more or less severe/widespread? Those are awfully close to a multiple of 60 years apart - could the Multidecadal Oscillation be to blame in part? Meanwhile, one problem with global warming (at least when falling short of clearing Antarctica of ice) is that the Northern Hemisphere warms more than the Southern Hemisphere does. (Nowadays that is possibly exacerbated by the Multidecadal Oscillation being currently in a more-North-heating phase [to the extent it is known], with modern Australian heat probably being dependent on dryness.) Such disproportionately-northern heating (in short term by the Multidecadal Oscillation and in longer time by global warming) can shift the intertropical convergence zone northward, decreasing gradient of temperature (at all levels of the tropoosphere and when appropriately weighted with humidity) in the Southern Hemisphere south of the Tropic of Capricorn. Such horizontal gradient of temperature (through all levels of the troposphere and with appropriate weighting by humidity) is what drives the kind of rainstorms that southern Australia depends on. - Don Klipstein (don(a)misty.com)
From: Bill Ward on 1 Dec 2008 23:14
On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 00:19:20 +0000, Don Klipstein wrote: > In <4af7b00c-7776-415a-bf71-f008a2e38c72(a)j38g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, > bill.sloman(a)ieee.org wrote: > >>On 23 nov, 16:47, Bill Ward <bw...(a)REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote: >>> On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 05:03:45 -0800, bill.sloman wrote: >>> > On 23 nov, 05:33, Bill Ward <bw...(a)REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote: > <SNIP to edit for space> > >>> Wrong fiasco. =A0I meant this one: >>> >>> http://www.denisdutton.com/cooling_world.htm >> >>Scarcely. The cooling was real enough, if insignificant - and probably >>had something to do with sulphur-dioxide-generated haze, which went away >>when we tackled acid rain. >> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Instrumental_Temperature_Record.png > > Some of the up-and-down looks to me like being in a 60 year cycle - > maybe the Multidecadal Oscillation. Could be. Or just a mind seeing pattern where there is none. It's chaotic. There is no pattern. > > - Don Klipstein (don(a)misty.com) |