There is just *one* kind of mass!!
in [Physics]
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From: Inertial on 4 Jan 2010 08:04 "Y.Porat" <y.y.porat(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:caf0fe8f-4147-4ec2-aa0f-7e01e84bfb9b(a)u41g2000yqe.googlegroups.com... > On Jan 4, 2:00 pm, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: >> "Y.Porat" <y.y.po...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> news:84966d5a-7fc3-4e2f-bc79-87dae1de875d(a)r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> > On Jan 4, 10:11 am, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: >> >> "Y.Porat" <y.y.po...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> >>news:1acebe05-1399-406e-aaed-79802bf80557(a)u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> > 9 sent a new thread >> >> > and for some reason i cant see it >> >> > so let me try again: >> >> >> Be ny guest >> >> >> > Let us take an example case: >> >> >> > a mass (say electron or Proton) >> >> > is starting to move at a low velocity v1 >> >> > and therefore has momentum >> >> > P1 = mv! >> >> >> Close enough >> >> >> P1 = gamma.mv1 >> >> >> and when v << c, gamma is very close to 1 so >> >> >> P2 ~= mv1 >> >> >> at at low velocities, it is very difficult to determine the difference >> >> >> > later it is accelerated to a much hifger velocity >> >> > P2 = mv2 >> >> > say v2 very close to c !!! >> >> >> Then the formula is wrong for momentum >> >> >> P2 = gamma.mv2 >> >> >> > so now >> >> > P2 >> P1 >> >> >> Yes >> >> >> > my question is >> >> > what made P2 to be bigger than P1 ?? >> >> >> The velocity is bigger of course. Momentum is a frame dependent >> >> value. >> >> So >> >> its value depends on relative velocity of the object being observed. >> >> Different observers will have different values for the momentum. >> >> >> > (what made the momentum to be bigger ) >> >> >> > do you think it is a trivial question?? >> >> >> Not unless you are asking what momentum actually is and how different >> >> observers can measure different values for it. Then its something >> >> that I >> >> do >> >> not think there is a good definitive physics answer for. I'm sure >> >> you'll >> >> come up with some nonsense to explain it .. probably involving things >> >> moving >> >> in circles. >> >> >> > we are going to see if all people think so >> >> > and really understand what they are parroting >> >> > 2 >> >> > we keep in mind that >> >> > momentum = mv =F detat T >> >> > (F force >> >> > T Time ) >> >> >> Only at low velocities (v << c) >> >> > ------------------- >> >> > see the title >> >> You've not addressed anything in the title. You've only discussed >> momentum >> increasing with velocity. >> >> > next !!! ..... (:-) >> > please by pass the leech idiot parrot >> > lier psychopath >> > Feuerbacher >> >> He isn't posting here. > > ------------------- > ok we heard you > let others more creative than you -- get in > next > Y.Porat > ----------------------- I'm not stopping them .. whoever they are.
From: PD on 4 Jan 2010 11:53 On Jan 4, 1:45 am, "Y.Porat" <y.y.po...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 9 sent a new thread > and for some reason i cant see it > so let me try again: > > Let us take an example case: > > a mass (say electron or Proton) > is starting to move at a low velocity v1 > and therefore has momentum > P1 = mv! No, Porat. It has momentum P1=gamma*m*v. It has that momentum whether it is moving fast or slow. It so happens that at low speed, gamma is *very close* to 1, but that doesn't mean that the correct expression for momentum is mv. > > later it is accelerated to a much hifger velocity > P2 = mv2 And again, the correct expression is p=gamma*m*v. > say v2 very close to c !!! > > so now > P2 >> P1 > > my question is > what made P2 to be bigger than P1 ?? > (what made the momentum to be bigger ) The external force that accelerated it! That's Newton's second law: F = dp/dt. > > do you think it is a trivial question?? > > we are going to see if all people think so > and really understand what they are parroting > 2 > we keep in mind that > momentum = mv =F detat T No. The correct expression is delta(momentum) = F * delta(T) And momentum = gamma*m*v. > (F force > T Time ) > > TIA > Y.Porat > -------------------------
From: Y.Porat on 4 Jan 2010 13:55 On Jan 4, 6:53 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jan 4, 1:45 am, "Y.Porat" <y.y.po...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > 9 sent a rspond > > and for some reason i cant see it > > so let me try again: > ------------------------------ On Jan 4, 6:53 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jan 4, 1:45 am, "Y.Porat" <y.y.po...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > a mass (say electron or Proton) > > is starting to move at a low velocity v1 > > and therefore has momentum > > P1 = mv! > > No, Porat. It has momentum P1=gamma*m*v. Ok there is the gamma thank you ! yet is it (the Gamma )attached to the mass or to the momentum ??!! ------------- > It has that momentum whether it is moving fast or slow. very nice but my main point was TO COMPARE TH E MOMENTUM OF THE *SAME* PROTON IN SLOW MOTION AND IN FAST MOTION AND SEE THE DIFFERENCE PLUS TO FIND OUT WHAT MADE THE GROWTH OF MOMENTUM!! WAS IT because GROWTH OF MASS ??!! as it is accustom to parrot ??!! (my idea of taking the same Proton or even an** identical *proton colliding the first one --- after being in a stationary position-- was to minimize the number of unknowns )) and concentrate on the net effect of movement on momentum!! ------------------ > It so happens that at low speed, gamma is *very close* to 1, but that > doesn't mean that the correct expression for momentum is mv. ok i knew (just took it as knwon you dont suspect that i didnt know it .(:-) ...it and it does not make a difference to my concussions.... > > > > > later it is accelerated to a much hifger velocity > > P2 = mv2 > > And again, the correct expression is p=gamma*m*v. yes > > > say v2 very close to c !!! > > > so now > > P2 >> P1 > > > my question is > > what made P2 to be bigger than P1 ?? > > (what made the momentum to be bigger ) > > The external force that accelerated it! That's Newton's second law: F > = dp/dt. > ----------- ok we will concentrate on it later > > > > do you think it is a trivial question?? > > > we are going to see if all people think so > > and really understand what they are parroting > > 2 > > we keep in mind that > > momentum = mv =F detat T > > No. > The correct expression is > delta(momentum) = F * delta(T) ok > > And momentum = gamma*m*v. ok > > > (F force > > T Time ) ---------------------- but now comes the main point question for you PD did the above growth of momentum- 'inflated 'the original mass of the Proton ?? TIA Y.Porat -------------------------
From: PD on 4 Jan 2010 14:45 On Jan 4, 12:55 pm, "Y.Porat" <y.y.po...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jan 4, 6:53 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote:> On Jan 4, 1:45 am, "Y.Porat" <y.y.po...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > 9 sent a rspond > > > and for some reason i cant see it > > > so let me try again: > > ------------------------------ > > On Jan 4, 6:53 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jan 4, 1:45 am, "Y.Porat" <y.y.po...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > a mass (say electron or Proton) > > > is starting to move at a low velocity v1 > > > and therefore has momentum > > > P1 = mv! > > > No, Porat. It has momentum P1=gamma*m*v. > > Ok there is the gamma > > thank you ! > yet is it (the Gamma )attached to the mass > or to the momentum ??!! It's not attached to either one. In English, the equation means, "(For a massive object) momentum is the product of the object's gamma and the object's mass and the object's velocity." If you change the equation to read P1/gamma = m*v, then neither the left hand side nor the right hand side is momentum any longer. The left hand side is the ratio of momentum and gamma, and the right hand side is the product of mass and velocity, but neither side is momentum. > ------------- > > > It has that momentum whether it is moving fast or slow. > > very nice > but my main point was > TO COMPARE TH E MOMENTUM > OF THE *SAME* PROTON > IN SLOW MOTION AND IN FAST MOTION The momentum of the proton in slow motion is gamma*m*v. The momentum of the proton in fast motion is gamma*m*v. There is no difference. > AND SEE THE DIFFERENCE > PLUS > TO FIND OUT WHAT MADE THE GROWTH > OF MOMENTUM!! > WAS IT because GROWTH OF MASS ??!! > as it is accustom to parrot ??!! > > (my idea of taking the same Proton > or even an** identical *proton colliding the first one --- > after being in a stationary position-- > was to minimize the number of unknowns )) > > and concentrate on the net effect of movement > on momentum!! > ------------------ > > > It so happens that at low speed, gamma is *very close* to 1, but that > > doesn't mean that the correct expression for momentum is mv. > > ok i knew (just took it as knwon > you dont suspect that i didnt know it .(:-) > ..it and it does not make a difference > to my concussions.... > > > > > > later it is accelerated to a much hifger velocity > > > P2 = mv2 > > > And again, the correct expression is p=gamma*m*v. > > yes > > > > say v2 very close to c !!! > > > > so now > > > P2 >> P1 > > > > my question is > > > what made P2 to be bigger than P1 ?? > > > (what made the momentum to be bigger ) > > > The external force that accelerated it! That's Newton's second law: F > > = dp/dt. > > ----------- > > ok > we will concentrate on it later > > > > > > do you think it is a trivial question?? > > > > we are going to see if all people think so > > > and really understand what they are parroting > > > 2 > > > we keep in mind that > > > momentum = mv =F detat T > > > No. > > The correct expression is > > delta(momentum) = F * delta(T) > > ok > > > > > And momentum = gamma*m*v. > > ok > > > > (F force > > > T Time ) > > ---------------------- > but now comes the main point question for you > PD > > did the above growth of momentum- 'inflated 'the > original mass of the Proton ?? No, the mass is the same. As I told you before, "relativistic mass" is an outmoded and discarded notion and has been for decades. Do catch up. > > TIA > Y.Porat > -------------------------
From: Y.Porat on 4 Jan 2010 15:38
On Jan 4, 9:45 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jan 4, 12:55 pm, "Y.Porat" <y.y.po...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > P1 = mv! > > > > No, Porat. It has momentum P1=gamma*m*v. > > > Ok there is the gamma > > > thank you ! > > yet is it (the Gamma )attached to the mass > > or to the momentum ??!! > > It's not attached to either one. > In English, the equation means, "(For a massive object) momentum is > the product of the object's gamma and the object's mass and the > object's velocity." > ------------------------- i asked you and i wil ask again: did the growth of momentum was because of the growth of the mass ???!!! ------------ > If you change the equation to read P1/gamma = m*v, then neither the > left hand side nor the right hand side is momentum any longer. The > left hand side is the ratio of momentum and gamma, and the right hand > side is the product of mass and velocity, but neither side is > momentum. i doubt it !! since gamma is just a scalar it does not matetr PHYSICALLY it has a **quantitative** meaning but not a **qualitative** physical meaning !! if it on the rigth or left side !! but anyway that is not our main issue right now !! i could make some insigth about the fact that P = df'dt as well because if a particles moved faster in case 2 it means that delat F is bigger iow if our proton moved faster th e force that it will exert on another stationary proton willbe bigger that if it was moving slower!! so again the grweth of momentum is again ***not because the growth mas mass in the other side *** BUT BECAUSE THE GROTH OF MOMENTUM as awhle entity 2 **you dont have a little gage sticked to the mass that CAN TELL YOUI (EXPERIMENTALLY!) THAT IT IS RATHER THE MASS THAT GREW !!! ) ------------------ > ------------------------- i dont mind how it is called if you swich the gamma wHat i mind is that MOMENTUM GREW AND I ASK IS THAT GROTH HAPPENED BECAUSE OF THE GROUTH OF MASS IN IT ?? WHILE TH E FORMULA DEFINED MOMENTUM ACCORDING TO YOU??! ------------ ----------------- > > ------------- > > > > It has that momentum whether it is moving fast or slow. > > > very nice > > but my main point was > > TO COMPARE TH E MOMENTUM > > OF THE *SAME* PROTON > > IN SLOW MOTION AND IN FAST MOTION > > The momentum of the proton in slow motion is gamma*m*v. > The momentum of the proton in fast motion is gamma*m*v. > > There is no difference. > > > > > AND SEE THE DIFFERENCE > > PLUS > > TO FIND OUT WHAT MADE THE GROWTH > > OF MOMENTUM!! > > WAS IT because GROWTH OF MASS ??!! > > as it is accustom to parrot ??!! > > > (my idea of taking the same Proton > > or even an** identical *proton colliding the first one --- > > after being in a stationary position-- > > was to minimize the number of unknowns )) > > > and concentrate on the net effect of movement > > on momentum!! > > ------------------ > > > > It so happens that at low speed, gamma is *very close* to 1, but that > > > doesn't mean that the correct expression for momentum is mv. > > > ok i knew (just took it as knwon > > you dont suspect that i didnt know it .(:-) > > ..it and it does not make a difference > > to my concussions.... > > > > > later it is accelerated to a much hifger velocity > > > > P2 = mv2 > > > > And again, the correct expression is p=gamma*m*v. > > > yes > > > > > say v2 very close to c !!! > > > > > so now > > > > P2 >> P1 > > > > > my question is > > > > what made P2 to be bigger than P1 ?? > > > > (what made the momentum to be bigger ) > > > > The external force that accelerated it! That's Newton's second law: F > > > = dp/dt. > > > ----------- > > > ok > > we will concentrate on it later > > > > > do you think it is a trivial question?? > > > > > we are going to see if all people think so > > > > and really understand what they are parroting > > > > 2 > > > > we keep in mind that > > > > momentum = mv =F detat T > > > > No. > > > The correct expression is > > > delta(momentum) = F * delta(T) > > > ok > > > > And momentum = gamma*m*v. > > > ok > > > > > (F force > > > > T Time ) > > > ---------------------- > > but now comes the main point question for you > > PD > > > did the above growth of momentum- 'inflated 'the > > original mass of the Proton ?? > > No, the mass is the same. As I told you before, "relativistic mass" is > an outmoded and discarded notion and has been for decades. Do catch > up. >---------------------------- BINGO !! Q E D !!!!! THERE IS JUST ONE KIND OF MASS NO MATTER HOW DO YOU CALL IT that is exactly what i wanted to say SEE THE OP POST !!! but you still didnt notice that i proved above another issue that ENERGY (or even momentum) IS MASS IN MOTION !!! which is not the current common paradigm !!! and i am not sure that you AND OTHERS understand it EVEN NOW !!!........... ATB Y.Porat --------------------------- but now youhave to tell it to all the parrots that talk about relativistic mass > > > > TIA > > Y.Porat > > ------------------------- |