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From: Bret Cahill on 10 Mar 2010 22:39
> > Two items - one personal, one only secondhand.
>
> > 1. My 2008 Tacoma puckup is under the "floormat" recall.  I noticed
> > the assembly was wrong whe I bought the truck.  The Toyota-provided
> > overlay mats have grommeted holes for hooks to keep the mats from
> > moving.  However, the hooks are only installed on the passenger side
> > of the truck - maybe they thought it was to be right hand drive?
>
> > 2. A woman my wife works with had a new (2010) Corolla.  She had not
> > ecperienced any of the litany of problems, but took it in for the
> > "sudden acceleration fix".  10 days later, her brother was driving the
> > car and she ws riding with him when the car experienced a sudden
> > acceleration event.  Her "fix" was successful - she went directly to a
> > Honda dealer and traded it in on a new Accord.
>
> > At this point, I don't plan to take my truck in for the "floormat fix"
> > and the "courtesy" brake override fix (hitting the brakes above 30 MPH
> > returns the throttle to idle).  I don't believe that Toyota knows
> > which way is idle in the throttle control unit (bit X or inverted bit
> > X - which is pretty basic electronics ;-)
>
> It adds significantly to the seriousness of this problem when people such as
> yourself tell of experiences such as this. I don't really trust the
> electronic drive-by-wire systems. The closest thing I have experienced with
> this sort of problem was with my 1998 Saturn, where sometimes the idle speed
> would increase from its normal 800 RPM to 1500 or even 2000 RPM. It's a five
> speed manual, so I only noticed it when I changed gears or held in the
> clutch or put it in neutral. I think the problem was a bad temperature
> sender which told the computer that the engine was cold.
>
> Also, I think the electronic system had only limited control over the
> accelerator, so it could only affect idle speed by cracking the accelerator
> perhaps 10%. It used a cable which connected to the air horn, so it could
> not provide full power position and the brakes probably would overpower the
> engine. Besides, being a manual transmission, if there was any sign of
> unintended acceleration, I would have instinctively taken it out of gear.
> I've always had M/T vehicles since 1970, and I really don't want an
> automatic.
>
> It is a bit scary when we allow mechatronic systems to take over things that
> have previously been performed with manual control, perhaps with a bit of
> power assist, but always overridable manually.
>
> My current 1989 Toyota 4WD Pickup is under recall notice for a defective
> steering relay rod, but I haven't taken it in. I have owned several Toyotas,
> and I have been fairly well impressed with the quality and lack of major
> problems. But I had a 1982 Toyota LongBed that had some potentially deadly
> steering problems.
>
> Once, when I was pulling out of a parking space, the steering wheel suddenly
> became very loose. My first thought was that it was on a sheet of ice. But
> the steering mechanism ball joint had popped out of the socket, which would
> have been really interesting if I was maneuvering in high speed traffic!
>
> And not long after that, I had pulled into a snow-covered dirt parking area,
> and I found I had problems steering, which I assumed was caused by ice. But
> when I looked, one wheel was pointed in one direction, and the other was
> pointed elsewhere. A tie rod end had come loose. I was able to pop it back
> in and secure it with baling wire until I gingerly drove to the shop. But,
> again, fortunate that I was not going fast. It had almost 200,000 miles on
> it, and it was probably time for a major steering overhaul.
>
> I really don't trust electronics to drive my vehicle for me. And I don't
> need to have it park itself. Imagine if that procedure got called when you
> were just rolling along on the Interstate with 18-wheelers all around you!

Automation is good as long as there is an override and everyone knows
how to use it.

NPR SDSU just had some commentator claim that every vehicle including
every hybrid electric has a neutral. If you don't know where the
neutral is you shouldn't be on the road in the first place and ought
to get a ticket for not knowing how to drive your vehicle.

He was probably speeding and pulled off this entire charade to get out
of a ticket.

The story about burning up the brakes is incredible. Unless he was
riding the brakes for 280 miles that story is complete bs.


Bret Cahill


From: Bret Cahill on 11 Mar 2010 10:03
> To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system problem.
> It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
> into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
> replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
> anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!
>
> But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
> examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders. They
> have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats and
> accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
> and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
> third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
> documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on their
> part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
> they are more open.
>
> The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them just
> as an airplane would be.  

It's hard to believe that a brake system designed to take the car from
60 - 0 in 3 seconds cannot prevail against a drive train that can only
put out a fourth that much power.

> Toyota's techs should be kept away from it except
> under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
> wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
> something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf


Bret Cahill


From: Paul E. Schoen on 11 Mar 2010 17:07

"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill(a)peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:26eb5d4f-99b2-4e8d-b631-2d973cbb9b58(a)o16g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

It's hard to believe that a brake system designed to take the car from
60 - 0 in 3 seconds cannot prevail against a drive train that can only
put out a fourth that much power.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

That's an interesting article. In my 1999 Saturn, and previous 1998 and 1997
models, I sometimes got service codes indicating slow or out of calibration
readings on things like the oxygen sensor. But they don't have ETCs,
although the ECM can increase the idle speed.

With a hybrid vehicle such as the Prius, there are other failure mechanisms
that might cause runaway acceleration. The electric motors are probably
driven by a PWM controller, and the motors may be connected directly to the
drivetrain. Apparently the Prius does not have a manual transmission option,
and there is no actual transmission. So a failure of the controller could
cause a full-speed motor drive, and unlike a gasoline engine, it would never
stall, and it has as much torque at 90 MPH as at start. So, without an
electrical system kill switch, it might be possible to burn up the brakes.

Apparently the first generation Honda Civic Hybrid had a manual tranny
option. But it only does 0-60 in 11.6 seconds. Their Accord Hybrid is
peppier, but comes only in automatic. And I was surprised that it only got
28 city/35 highway MPG. My simple bare bones $4000 1999 Saturn SL-1 does at
least that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Civic_Hybrid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accord_Hybrid

Paul

From: John Larkin on 11 Mar 2010 18:09
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:03:22 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill(a)peoplepc.com> wrote:

>> To me it has the ear marks of a in fuel-accelerator computer system problem.
>> It's as though the processor goes into la-la land for no apparent reason
>> into a full, max on failure mode. When the techs look at it, they can't
>> replicate the problem. The processor never does it again, at least while
>> anyone is looking. We've never seen software do that have we? No!
>>
>> But the real problem is Toyota's secrecy, not allowing any third party to
>> examine their documentation even to the point of defying court orders. They
>> have blown smoke up each other's butts with attempted fixes, floor mats and
>> accelerator mechanical fixes but likely to no avail. Failures keep coming
>> and Toyota believes their own propaganda. It's time for an independent,
>> third party look into the problems including Toyota's engineering and
>> documentation without a connection to Toyota but with full openness on their
>> part. Otherwise, maybe we should forbid them from selling in the US until
>> they are more open.
>>
>> The San Diego Prius should be impounded by the TSA and examined by them just
>> as an airplane would be. �
>
>It's hard to believe that a brake system designed to take the car from
>60 - 0 in 3 seconds cannot prevail against a drive train that can only
>put out a fourth that much power.
>
>> Toyota's techs should be kept away from it except
>> under TSA supervision. Like before, they aren't likely to find anything
>> wrong or make up something silly like floor mats, drivers big feet or
>> something equally ridiculous. No more Toyota excuses and secrecy.
>
>http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf
>
>
>Bret Cahill
>


Here's one good way to stop a runaway vehicle:

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/oops.zip

Just pull over to the curb.

John





From: Bret Cahill on 11 Mar 2010 23:33
>   It's hard to believe that a brake system designed to take the car from
>   60 - 0 in 3 seconds cannot prevail against a drive train that can only
>   put out a fourth that much power.
>
>  http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> That's an interesting article. In my 1999 Saturn, and previous 1998 and 1997
> models, I sometimes got service codes indicating slow or out of calibration
> readings on things like the oxygen sensor. But they don't have ETCs,
> although the ECM can increase the idle speed.
>
> With a hybrid vehicle such as the Prius, there are other failure mechanisms
> that might cause runaway acceleration. The electric motors are probably
> driven by a PWM controller, and the motors may be connected directly to the
> drivetrain. Apparently the Prius does not have a manual transmission option,
> and there is no actual transmission. So a failure of the controller could
> cause a full-speed motor drive, and unlike a gasoline engine, it would never
> stall, and it has as much torque at 90 MPH as at start. So, without an
> electrical system kill switch, it might be possible to burn up the brakes..
>
> Apparently the first generation Honda Civic Hybrid had  a manual tranny
> option. But it only does 0-60 in 11.6 seconds. Their Accord Hybrid is
> peppier, but comes only in automatic. And I was surprised that it only got
> 28 city/35 highway MPG. My simple bare bones $4000 1999 Saturn SL-1 does at
> least that.

In 6 more weeks my rest pulse rate will be down to 45/minute from
cycle commuting 20 miles each way.

Warren Buffet has been investing billions in the energy basics lately,
GE, BNSF, etc. He needs to consider bicycles. Tuesday they found me
waiting for the bike shop to open and got charged FIVE DOLLARS for a
shifter cable.

I should have kept the mouth shut about the knees and the wind.


Bret Cahill



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